# Good natured gay jokes are holding back acceptance of gays as equals **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682 "2011-12-18T22:52:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/41 "2011-12-19T12:16:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I think you meant Western world there, cause a look at Anglophone Africa wouldnt lead me to the same conclusion. I was thinking more of the oceanic countries when I typed that, but you’re right that Anglophone does include a lot of deeply homophobic Africa. > [@](#): > > Not wanting to threadshit or anything But I’m going to anyway > [@](#): > > but didnt you post more or less the same OP a month ago? I don’t know, did I? I’ve just looked at the list of threads that I started and can’t see anything that similar. Unless you’re talking about the one I did on acceptable levels of male contact which includes some of the same points, but wasn’t directly about the same topic. You asked the question so I guess the burden of proof is on you to decide. So, apart from nitpicking and suggesting that I’m a blow hard for this topic, was there anything else you wanted to add? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/42 "2011-12-19T12:40:53Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > But I’m going to anyway I don’t know, did I? I’ve just looked at the list of threads that I started and can’t see anything that similar. Unless you’re talking about the one I did on acceptable levels of male contact which includes some of the same points, but wasn’t directly about the same topic. Yeah, that’s the thread I was thinking about. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > So, apart from nitpicking and suggesting that I’m a blow hard for this topic, was there anything else you wanted to add? I didnt know I was that efficient that I could manage to nitpick _and_ be suggesting that in the space of two sentences. I’m afraid the blow hard coating is something you’re doing on your own here. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/43 "2011-12-19T12:42:56Z")
If you don’t think I’m banging a particular drum too much then why ask the question at all? The only reason I can think of is to suggest that I am, indeed, going on about this particular topic too much. Given you haven’t said anything directly relevant to the content of the OP or anyone else yet I’m not seeing any reason to change my opinion. Anywho - back to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/44 "2011-12-19T13:53:10Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I don’t care if guys have homosexual sex with each other. Guy on guy anal sex repulses me, meaning I’ll go out of my way to avoid seeing or hearing about it at all costs just as I’ll avoid scat and bondage porno. Seeing a big hairy butthole is gross to me and is even more so with a cock stuffed in it. Guy on guy bjs arent repulsive to me though i dont enjoy watching them. Why is this wrong? … But you’re all too eager to paint those vivid word pictures–rather than just say you don’t care for certain images. Images that are \*\*not \*\*really thrust into your face, unless you look at porn indiscriminately. Images that must get a rise out of you… ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/45 "2011-12-19T16:44:10Z")
> [@iftheresaway](#): > > Yeah, I definitely think it’s the “over and over” part that grates. I’ve taken a lot of good-natured ribbing about being a vegetarian, but I had two co-workers in particular who could never let a single day go by without asking if I would eat a cow if it was planted in the ground, or what if it was already dead, or some other “hilarious” joke. And I agree that the “not too close” joke would get under my skin - the whole point of a hug is expressing closeness to someone. If you care enough about them to give them a hug, then you should be fine with them being close. I got this in highschool (from one source, but just setting the age-level) for being Jewish, of all things. Thought that’d gone the way of the dodo, but I got snark every day from one classmate over it, and while the first day or two (or six) one can let it slide, it’s hearing it every day that gets under one’s skin. I completely understand the OP on this one. It’s one thing to hear the statement. It’s another to get bashed with it, and insult-to-injury is being told “Well, it’s just a joke, you need a thicker skin.” (As a side note, when the anti-Semitic snarkmeister continued with his off-color jokes, I’d try to defuse by giving him something anti-Catholic. He’d punch me. Not in a jokey-playful way, either. It took all I had to turn the other cheek on that one.) ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/46 "2011-12-19T18:44:58Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I’m not sure what’s prompted to make me write this but here I am. I’m not sure if I’m intending for this to be a discussion, a gentle RO or a refrain to dudes (and ladies) to think twice about making the hi-larious joke you were thinking of but which the other person might have heard countless times and just feels each time that a wedge is driven between them and the rest of the population. Thank you for being straight with us. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/47 "2011-12-19T19:17:44Z")
Okay, I admit I smiled. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/48 "2011-12-19T19:53:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Agreed. If you don’t want to know about what I would do to Ryan Gosling, don’t tell me how you’d get freaky with Selma Blair. These aren’t the same things. A group of guys talking about hot women isn’t an invitation for you to share your feelings about hot guys, any more than a group discussion about baseball is an invitation to share your thoughts on cricket. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/49 "2011-12-19T19:53:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Thanks for the sentiments, and I agree it’s a tricky line to tread. To reiterate I’m not proposing that one’s sexuality never be remarked on, or that it can’t be done in the context of humour, but if it’s going to happen it DOES need to be done in a way that conveys a sense of equality and respect. As for being accused of being too PC, I think as long as you’re not taking offence on behalf of others (“uh, guys, I think if a gay person was in the room they’d be offended by that joke”) then it’s a personal choice and it’s completely valid given how messy an area it can be. Well, here’s an incidence I was thinking of when I wrote that. I was at a gay bar, in a group with several gay men (and a couple lesbians, and my boyfriend), and a couple of the guys started talking about things being faggy, or so-and-so being a fag. And I guess I made a face or something, because one of them looked at me and started laughing, joking that he had offended me. I admitted I don’t like that word, but I understand that it’s different when gay guys use it amongst each other. But I am sometimes shocked at the amount of homophobia (and transphobia!) that I hear from liberal gay people. I pretty much keep my mouth shut, because I don’t think it’s my place, but it bothers me. Anyway, I think the whole thing kinda sucks, and I wish we could move past it. But I live in the Bible Belt of America, and change comes slow down here. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/50 "2011-12-19T20:20:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > These aren’t the same things. A group of guys talking about hot women isn’t an invitation for you to share your feelings about hot guys, any more than a group discussion about baseball is an invitation to share your thoughts on cricket. Yes they are the same thing. If you don’t want to hear what guys I find hot, then keep your mouth shut about women you find hot. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/51 "2011-12-19T20:28:04Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I think you meant Western world there, cause a look at Anglophone Africa wouldnt lead me to the same conclusion. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I was thinking more of the oceanic countries when I typed that, but you’re right that Anglophone does include a lot of deeply homophobic Africa. To an extent it depends on what you mean by Anglophone. Even in South Africa, which has the largest proportion of mother-tongue English speakers in Africa, they only make up 8% of the population. (And South Africa has full-on legal gay equality, though social attitudes lag behind.) English is the language of commerce and government in many African countries, but they’re not Anglophone in quite the same way that the UK/US/Australia etc. are. Of course, for mother-tongue-Anglophone countries that are generally homophobic there is the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/52 "2011-12-19T20:32:36Z")
> [@treis](#): > > These aren’t the same things. A group of guys talking about hot women isn’t an invitation for you to share your feelings about hot guys, any more than a group discussion about baseball is an invitation to share your thoughts on cricket. Is this a joke? It wasn’t funny. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/53 "2011-12-19T20:53:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > These aren’t the same things. A group of guys talking about hot women isn’t an invitation for you to share your feelings about hot guys, any more than a group discussion about baseball is an invitation to share your thoughts on cricket. Actually, I agree with this - I’m middle-aged with no children, and I realise that when I’m in a group of parents sharing anecdotes about their children, my responding with dog or cat anecdotes isn’t exactly appropriate. I’m also a woman who has been in male-dominated professions most of my life; I don’t chime in with details about men I find hot when a group of guys are talking about hot women. Etc. OTOH, my father was gay and never really OK with it which was sad, and I felt we’d really crossed some sort of comfortable line with each other when we reached a point where we could share bawdy comments on cute guys we saw. But that said, repeated jokes and nervous/cutesy comments about gayness would certainly get old fast, although humor is a way to distance oneself from something uncomfortable and maybe that’s why some people react that way? I imagibne it’s better than outright hostility or being ostracized. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/54 "2011-12-19T21:23:01Z")
The “don’t get too close” comment while hugging would bother me a lot. A possible different take on some of the comments that seem to place distance between people might be, and this might be a stretch, that the speaker is trying to say, “Hey, I recognize that we have some differences, but I still like and respect you. I haven’t pushed aside those differences and I don’t have to fool myself that you’re just like me in order to like you.” If that isn’t the vibe you get, though, I’d tend to trust your gut. And the hugging and TMI comments make me think your gut is right. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/55 "2011-12-19T22:30:42Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Did it make you feel I don’t respect you? If so I’m sorry. I wasn’t attempting to make a joke at your collective expense, merely point out a continuing source of irony. I forgive you. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/56 "2011-12-19T22:45:25Z")
**Illuminatiprimus** , your friends are jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/57 "2011-12-19T23:05:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > These aren’t the same things. A group of guys talking about hot women isn’t an invitation for you to share your feelings about hot guys, any more than a group discussion about baseball is an invitation to share your thoughts on cricket. Woiw. Just… wow. Let me translate what you just said into English: “when normal people are talking about acceptable relationships, we don’t want to hear about your disgusting perversions as if they’re in any way comparable”. Good luck convincing me or anyone else that that’s not exactly what you meant by that statement. > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Well, here’s an incidence I was thinking of when I wrote that. I was at a gay bar, in a group with several gay men (and a couple lesbians, and my boyfriend), and a couple of the guys started talking about things being faggy, or so-and-so being a fag. And I guess I made a face or something, because one of them looked at me and started laughing, joking that he had offended me. I admitted I don’t like that word, but I understand that it’s different when gay guys use it amongst each other. But I am sometimes shocked at the amount of homophobia (and transphobia!) that I hear from liberal gay people. I pretty much keep my mouth shut, because I don’t think it’s my place, but it bothers me. > > Anyway, I think the whole thing kinda sucks, and I wish we could move past it. But I live in the Bible Belt of America, and change comes slow down here. True, and I know what you mean. I’m quite liberal in my use of the word fag and faggy because I want to take its power away from it, but if someone said to me “I’m actually uncomfortable with hearing that” I wouldn’t mock them for it or tell them to get over it. I would point out that I’ve got a more legitimate reason to be offended by it than them, but that doesn’t invalidate how they feel (I have actually done this with someone so I speak from experience). > [@ctnguy](#): > > To an extent it depends on what you mean by Anglophone. Even in South Africa, which has the largest proportion of mother-tongue English speakers in Africa, they only make up 8% of the population. (And South Africa has full-on legal gay equality, though social attitudes lag behind.) English is the language of commerce and government in many African countries, but they’re not Anglophone in quite the same way that the UK/US/Australia etc. are. Of course, for mother-tongue-Anglophone countries that are generally homophobic there is the Caribbean. I don’t care about the definition of anglo-phone, I used the term incorrectly and it’s not relevant to what’s being discussed here. Can we lay off the nitpicking? > [@chiroptera](#): > > Actually, I agree with this - I’m middle-aged with no children, and I realise that when I’m in a group of parents sharing anecdotes about their children, my responding with dog or cat anecdotes isn’t exactly appropriate. That’s not the same and I’m a tad insulted that you just compared straight/gay relationships to children/pet anecdotes. > [@](#): > > I’m also a woman who has been in male-dominated professions most of my life; I don’t chime in with details about men I find hot when a group of guys are talking about hot women. Etc. I understand why you don’t, but don’t you realise that it’s just as sexist and oppressive for you to not be able to that with men as for me to have to keep my details of my gay life away from conversations with straight people? Are you saying you’re comfortable with that, or simply resigned to it? Certainly in discussions amongst mixed company I’ve been in women don’t feel they can’t participate equally to the men. > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > **Illuminatiprimus** , your friends are jerks. Maybe, or maybe it’s just jerkish behaviour born out of thoughtlessness. I guess the question is where does one end and the other begin? I have to say this thread has made me rethink what I consider acceptable for people to say to me, so if nothing else it’s proven really useful. Thanks everyone. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/58 "2011-12-19T23:41:22Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > That’s not the same and I’m a tad insulted that you just compared straight/gay relationships to children/pet anecdotes. No, I totally didn’t mean to do that - I was comparing discussions of hot women/men among like minded people of any orientation, or any type of “closed loop” discussion, not gay/straight. I realise that was a bit of a hijack I was responding to. > [@](#): > > I understand why you don’t, but don’t you realise that it’s just as sexist and oppressive for you to not be able to that with men as for me to have to keep my details of my gay life away from conversations with straight people? Are you saying you’re comfortable with that, or simply resigned to it? Certainly in discussions amongst mixed company I’ve been in women don’t feel they can’t participate equally to the men. No, I’ve never - OK, truth, very rarely - felt oppressed or sexually objectified in these situations. Yes, I am totally comfortable with it. I don’t feel that I am “not able”; I just realise it’s sort of out of place so choose not to, same as with making my cute pet comments in a my cute kids conversation. Just as I’m comfortable being with a group of women friends discussing hot actors’ bodies (mmm, Daniel Craig, mmm) and a husband of one of the women might wander in and start making comments about Jessica Alba’s tits or whatever with a group of straight women - that would be a bit weird. It would simply be out of place. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/59 "2011-12-19T23:47:37Z")
I don’t mean to imply, by the way, that being a woman in a male group is analagous to being gay in a mostly-straight world. I know it’s not the same. My other post was responding to a more specific situation and I answered with an analogy based on personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/60 "2011-12-20T00:01:19Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > That’s not what’s being said - it’s someone agreeing to hug you but then, during or after, making a comment that boils down to “I’d like to reiterate that despite hugging a gay person I’m not gay”. Do they “agree” to hug you or simply fail to physically reject the hug? My point is, you’ve posted on three separate occasions on your cluelessness about other men’s personal space - have you considered the possibility that you’re “that guy”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682.md?page=4)