# Good natured gay jokes are holding back acceptance of gays as equals **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682 "2011-12-18T22:52:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/101 "2011-12-20T16:13:40Z")
Maybe when people of different sexualities are together, the polite thing to do would be to avoid the “She/He’s HAWT” stuff altogether? I don’t know about ya’ll, but I think it’s rude to have a conversation that everyone can’t participate in and enjoy. If a bunch of Christians were talking about how wonderful Jesus Christ is in the midst of their Jewish and Muslim buddies, then I would think they were being incredibly rude. What is the point of having a conversation with another person if you don’t actually expect a real exchange of ideas? “Yo, bro. That girl over there is HAWT.” OK, maybe Gay Guy should just nod his head and agree, just to be polite and laid-back. But if the tables were turned, would Straight Guy be expected to do likewise? If the answer is yes, then fine. But if Straight Guy is allowed to say, “I don’t know, man. Let’s talk about something else”, then so should Gay Guy. When in mixed company, everyone should understand that convo topics should be as inclusive as possible. “Majority rules” is fine if it doesn’t happen frequently (no one is going to be able to comment on everything). But being a good friend means you don’t intentional exclude another person from the party. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/102 "2011-12-20T16:16:31Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > OK, so to summarize - you want to be accepted by and hang out with straight men, but you don’t want them to talk about things that straight men like to talk about unless you can also butt in with something they have no interest in talking about? Gee, sounds like a fun party. :rolleyes: OO, so to summarize - you want to be accepted by and hang out with gay men, but you don’t want them to talk about things that gay men like to talk about unless you can butt in with something hurtful and rude about their sexuality? Gee, sounds like you’re a nice person. :rolleyes::rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **Treis** said it well upthread - it’s impossible to socialize in a group setting without having topics come up that not _everyone_ present is interested in, regardless of what the subject is. In the one-on-one scenario though I suppose I can understand the sentiment, but even then the graceful thing is to politely change the subject instead of intentionally bringing up something you know the other party finds distasteful to make some kind of point about a double standard. What if he’s bringing up something because he wants to have a conversation and is trying to participate on equal footing with his friends? Oh, wait, you obviously believe gay people and their attractions are inferior and should be kept quiet around their “betters”, straight men. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > Nah, he’s actually one of the more reasoned voices. No, he isn’t. He’s saying bigoted garbage, and so are you. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/103 "2011-12-20T16:29:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Maybe when people of different sexualities are together, the polite thing to do would be to avoid the “She/He’s HAWT” stuff altogether? > > I don’t know about ya’ll, but I think it’s rude to have a conversation that everyone can’t participate in and enjoy. If a bunch of Christians were talking about how wonderful Jesus Christ is in the midst of their Jewish and Muslim buddies, then I would think they were being incredibly rude. I disagree. If I am with a bunch of friends talking about X-Mas memories, it would be odd and slightly offensive to think “Oh, the Jew is here, we can’t talk about this”. > [@monstro](#): > > What is the point of having a conversation with another person if you don’t actually expect a real exchange of ideas? “Yo, bro. That girl over there is HAWT.” OK, maybe Gay Guy should just nod his head and agree, just to be polite and laid-back. But if the tables were turned, would Straight Guy be expected to do likewise? If the answer is yes, then fine. But if Straight Guy is allowed to say, “I don’t know, man. Let’s talk about something else”, then so should Gay Guy. Yes, absolutely the situation is the same either way. But my point is that gay guy saying how hot other guy is misses the point of the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/104 "2011-12-20T16:30:44Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > What if he’s bringing up something because he wants to have a conversation and is trying to participate on equal footing with his friends? He can’t participate on equal footing with his friends because his friends like chicks and he doesn’t. That’s absolutely not any different from saying OP can’t participate on equal footing in conversations about sports because he doesn’t like sports. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/105 "2011-12-20T16:41:25Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I disagree. If I am with a bunch of friends talking about X-Mas memories, it would be odd and slightly offensive to think “Oh, the Jew is here, we can’t talk about this”. Yes, but would you react rudely if they brought up Hanukkah? “Ew, we’re talking about _Christmas_, not your holiday!” Or would you think, hey, we’re talking about winter holidays and this is relevant to the conversation? Because one response is rude, bigoted, hurtful and wrong, and the other is how friends treat each other. FYI: you are going with the asshole method. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/106 "2011-12-20T16:47:12Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Yes, but would you react rudely if they brought up Hanukkah? > > “Ew, we’re talking about _Christmas_, not your holiday!” > > Or would you think, hey, we’re talking about winter holidays and this is relevant to the conversation? Because one response is rude, bigoted, hurtful and wrong, and the other is how friends treat each other. FYI: you are going with the asshole method. I would go with the polite ignore and then continue the conversation we were having if I still had something to say. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/107 "2011-12-20T16:51:08Z")
Why the difference? ETA: I should say, why would you react differently when the Jewish guy brings up Hanukkah in a Christmas conversation than when the gay guy brings up hot men in a hot women conversation? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/108 "2011-12-20T16:55:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I would go with the polite ignore and then continue the conversation we were having if I still had something to say. Wow. ETA: I suppose I should be happy that you are bigoted towards everyone, not just gay people. At least your prejudice is fair! ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/109 "2011-12-20T16:55:38Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Why the difference? > > ETA: I should say, why would you react differently when the Jewish guy brings up Hanukkah in a Christmas conversation than when the gay guy brings up hot men in a hot women conversation? I didn’t say I would treat them any different. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/110 "2011-12-20T16:59:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I disagree. If I am with a bunch of friends talking about X-Mas memories, it would be odd and slightly offensive to think “Oh, the Jew is here, we can’t talk about this”. Hopefully the topic would be “Let’s discuss holiday memories, and Christmas is going to be mentioned the most only because most of us celebrate it” rather than “Let’s discuss Our Lord’s Birthday and the Sacred Specialness of this Very Important (To Us) Day.” So you’re probably talking about opening presents, maybe the foods you ate as a kid, and the hilarity that ensues when family is together. Everyone can relate to this. You don’t even have to be religious to participate. A Thanksgiving story will work just as well as a Christmas one. Likewise, if it’s four guys sitting around and one is gay, and all the other three guys can talk about are the hot girls strolling past or their various sexual conquests, then Gay Guy is going to feel weird if he isn’t expected to participate. Either they need to stop talking about that stuff, or they need to tailor the conversation so that he can chime in. Otherwise, they aren’t being good friends. > [@](#): > > Yes, absolutely the situation is the same either way. But my point is that gay guy saying how hot other guy is misses the point of the conversation. What is the point of such a question, honestly? To talk about how hot that one woman is? OK, but doesn’t this topic die out rather quickly? There’s only so many ways you can agree that a person is indeed “hot”. So if this is a conversation topic, I say it’s a pretty lame one. And since it’s a lame one, it’s not a big deal if someone adds an off-hand comment like “And so is the guy she’s with!” It’s like if I’m eating an ice cream cone and I tell the person closest to me that the ice cream cone is the best in the world. What are they supposed to say except for, “Oh, that’s nice?” And if they say, “That apple you’ve got looks good too”, is that a horrible faux pas, even if it’s not in keep with the ice cream theme? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/111 "2011-12-20T17:04:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I didn’t say I would treat them any different. Yes you did, you said you’d shut the gay guy down saying “Ew I don’t want to talk about that” and the Jewish guy you’d just politely ignore. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/112 "2011-12-20T17:15:58Z")
You know, perhaps we could use these scenarios as teaching moments. We gay guys know all about hot women. We can even appreciate them . . . esthetically, if not sexually. You don’t have to point out who’s hot and who’s not; we already know. Even making allowances for differing esthetic opinions. But what I’ve gotten from straight guys is that a lot of them are totally clueless about which guys are hot. They just don’t get it . . . and obviously there’s probably some homophobia here: They’re afraid that if they acknowledge that a guy’s hot, it means they’re not quite as straight as they’re believed to be. So perhaps it’s our job to get our straight brethren to pay more attention to male hotness. They may even become hotter themselves. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/113 "2011-12-20T17:23:17Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Hopefully the topic would be “Let’s discuss holiday memories, and Christmas is going to be mentioned the most only because most of us celebrate it” rather than “Let’s discuss Our Lord’s Birthday and the Sacred Specialness of this Very Important (To Us) Day.” So you’re probably talking about opening presents, maybe the foods you ate as a kid, and the hilarity that ensues when family is together. Everyone can relate to this. You don’t even have to be religious to participate. A Thanksgiving story will work just as well as a Christmas one. Obviously it depends on what exactly the conversation is about, but the general point stands. If a group of people are having a conversation about something that doesn’t interest you, the right thing to do isn’t to change it to something you want to talk about. Either let the conversation go and end on its own volition, or find some other people to talk to. Or if it is interesting enough to listen to, then listen to it. Seriously, what do you typically do when people are talking about something that doesn’t interest you? > [@monstro](#): > > What is the point of such a question, honestly? To talk about how hot that one woman is? OK, but doesn’t this topic die out rather quickly? There’s only so many ways you can agree that a person is indeed “hot”. So if this is a conversation topic, I say it’s a pretty lame one. And since it’s a lame one, it’s not a big deal if someone adds an off-hand comment like “And so is the guy she’s with!” Lame according to you. Not necessarily lame to the people having it. And, by the way, to simultaneously declare that you do not understand something and call it lame takes some chutzpah. People have these conversations because they want to idly bullshit about something. Well, the first reason is no different than pointing out a rainbow or cool painting. No more than giving your friend and opportunity to see the same awesome thing you did. Beyond that, it’s an essentially meaningless topic, but something that all heterosexual men have an interest in. That makes it conducive to mildly entertaining conversation. If I put on my sociologist cap, this conversation is little different from gossip. Humans seem to be hard wired to gossip, and we do it to pass on social norms. So when we say Suzie’s a skank for sleeping with Joe, we are reinforcing shared bonds. We communicate that we have the same values, and have a deeper bond because we know we both think the same thing. Talking about a hot chick is a result of the same circuits, and serves basically the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/114 "2011-12-20T17:25:08Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Yes you did, you said you’d shut the gay guy down saying “Ew I don’t want to talk about that” and the Jewish guy you’d just politely ignore. No, I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/115 "2011-12-20T17:59:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Obviously it depends on what exactly the conversation is about, but the general point stands. If a group of people are having a conversation about something that doesn’t interest you, the right thing to do isn’t to change it to something you want to talk about. Either let the conversation go and end on its own volition, or find some other people to talk to. Or if it is interesting enough to listen to, then listen to it. Seriously, what do you typically do when people are talking about something that doesn’t interest you? Believe it or not, I’m kind of an expert on this. Most conversations that I’m privy to in real life are either of topics that I am only minimally interested in or I cannot relate to them at all. I’ve perfected the “I’m listening to you, but not really” look. I also know how to expertly change the conversation. So if someone is drooling over some guy in a JC Penny catalog and waiting for my comment, I’ll say, “He’s okay. But look at this! These hiking boots are on sale!” The comment about the hot guy is lame. And so I’m going to follow it up with an equally lame comment. Either we will continue swapping lame statements, or we will talk about something more important. Doesn’t matter what happens. I’m not going to be bent out of shape either way. > [@](#): > > Lame according to you. Not necessarily lame to the people having it. No, it is lame. Lame meaning “not critical, not important, not earth-shattering.” Talking about how hot someone is as meaningful as talking about how pleasant the weather is. It’s trivial. It’s space-filler. It requires minimal brain activity. It’s pretty much begging for something else to be talked about. Granted, 80% of conversations are like this. If someone is talking about the memory of their dead mother…or venting about a relationship on the rocks…or expressing joy about their newborn, then it is rude and crazy to change the conversation. You sit there and listen, even if you don’t have much to contribute other than agreement. But “She’s HAWT!!” is a dumb-ass topic for conversation. You either say, “Yeah, she is” or you say, “Yeah. Now where is that waitress?” If you’re expecting a deep cerebral conversation about feminine beauty, you don’t start off by talking like a drunk frat guy. > [@](#): > > And, by the way, to simultaneously declare that you do not understand something and call it lame takes some chutzpah. No, chutzpah is declaring your pet topic of conversation important and steam-rolling anyone’s attempt to participate in it the only way they can. And politely ignoring someone is disrespectful. Having a conversation that intentionally excludes someone is disrespectful. > [@](#): > > People have these conversations because they want to idly bullshit about something. Well, the first reason is no different than pointing out a rainbow or cool painting. No more than giving your friend and opportunity to see the same awesome thing you did. Beyond that, it’s an essentially meaningless topic, but something that all heterosexual men have an interest in. That makes it conducive to mildly entertaining conversation. All heterosexual men, regardless of their marital status, goggle at women and do the “Man, she’s hawt!” stuff? Really? Do they do this around their girlfriends and wives too? All heterosexual men may love looking at attractive women, but I don’t think all of them go around pointing out attractive women and talking about them. And if they do, then yeah, I’m thinking that’s pretty stupid. And if they can’t find anything else to talk about, that’s even more ridiculous. > [@](#): > > If I put on my sociologist cap, this conversation is little different from gossip. Humans seem to be hard wired to gossip, and we do it to pass on social norms. So when we say Suzie’s a skank for sleeping with Joe, we are reinforcing shared bonds. We communicate that we have the same values, and have a deeper bond because we know we both think the same thing. Talking about a hot chick is a result of the same circuits, and serves basically the same purpose. If you wouldn’t talk about a hot chick with your girlfriend, then it’s not “hardwired”. It’s something you do because you think that’s what guys do and enjoy, but it’s not something you can’t shut off when you want to. If all you want to talk about is heterosexual sex and hot women, you probably aren’t going to be friends with a gay guy anyway. So perhaps we’re all just wasting our breath with you. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/116 "2011-12-20T18:36:29Z")
I feel for you with respect to the constant reminders that you’re _different!_ but I have to say, if you’re going to hang out with straight men, you’re going to have to get used to the fact that the great majority of them are going to say things like what you describe. Not all of them, certainly, but most of them have those attitudes and you have to decide if you’re willing to put up with hearing that stuff if you’re going to spend time with them. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/117 "2011-12-20T19:34:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No, it is lame. Lame meaning “not critical, not important, not earth-shattering.” That’s not what lame means. > [@monstro](#): > > Talking about how hot someone is as meaningful as talking about how pleasant the weather is. It’s trivial. It’s space-filler. It requires minimal brain activity. It’s pretty much begging for something else to be talked about. According to you. But then you’ve already admitted you don’t understand these conversations. > [@monstro](#): > > If you’re expecting a deep cerebral conversation about feminine beauty, you don’t start off by talking like a drunk frat guy. Yup. You clearly don’t understand. > [@monstro](#): > > No, chutzpah is declaring your pet topic of conversation important and steam-rolling anyone’s attempt to participate in it the only way they can. And politely ignoring someone is disrespectful. Having a conversation that intentionally excludes someone is disrespectful. And we are back to this ridiculous standard. In a group situation conversations are going to happen about topics that don’t interest you. > [@monstro](#): > > All heterosexual men, regardless of their marital status, goggle at women and do the “Man, she’s hawt!” stuff? Really? Do they do this around their girlfriends and wives too? Let’s see, did I say that? No? Ok, good. > [@monstro](#): > > If you wouldn’t talk about a hot chick with your girlfriend, then it’s not “hardwired”. Let’s see, did I say that? No? Ok, good. > [@monstro](#): > > If all you want to talk about is heterosexual sex and hot women, Let’s see, did I say that? No? Ok, good. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/118 "2011-12-20T20:29:56Z")
Those are questions. If the answer to them is no, just say no. If the answer is yes, just say yes. Goodness. Someone really needs to take a class in how to talk to people! To the OP, yes, it _is_ inconsiderate of other people to go “ew, blech!” when you are just echoing what they say, only in your own words. My advice is to not hang out with people like this. Or if you actually care about them, just tell them how you feel in as light-hearted, non-accusatory way as possible. Most caring, thoughtful people–IMHO–would step back and at least consider that you might have a point. And if they don’t do this, then you probably shouldn’t consider them friends. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/119 "2011-12-20T21:08:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Those are questions. If the answer to them is no, just say no. If the answer is yes, just say yes. If, then statements aren’t questions. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682/120 "2011-12-20T21:57:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > And we are back to this ridiculous standard. In a group situation conversations are going to happen about topics that don’t interest you. I know I shouldn’t bother, but… This is where you are losing people. **Why is it ok for a gay man to have to listen to you prattle on about HAWT women when he isn’t interested, but it’s wrong of him to bring up a topic he cares about that you aren’t interested in?** Do you see the double standard here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-natured-gay-jokes-are-holding-back-acceptance-of-gays-as-equals/606682.md?page=7)