# Good news: A fatwa on Reverend Falwell **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2002, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009 "2002-10-12T23:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/41 "2002-10-13T15:08:08Z")
> [@](#): > > “I can only say that the cost of a one-way ticket is substantially less than that,” Fleischer said. “The cost of one bullet, if the Iraqi people take it on themselves, is substantially less than that.” Yep, pretty funny when those conservatives do it too. It also makes for a great opportunity for people to painlessly espouse their own moral superiority. Now that Falwell has [retracted and apologized](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=584&e=3&cid=584&u=/nm/20021013/pl_nm/falwell_dc) we can all either:[ul] [li]Congratulate him for having the nobility and decency to back away from his odious remarks.[/li][li]Call him a coward for backing down in the face of threats. [/li][li]Suggest that his apology was nothing but the insincere weaseling of an evil man.[/li][li]Complain about how unforgiving those muslims must be for not calling off their little vendetta[/li][li]etc. etc.[/li][/ul]Even if we take Falwell’s apology at face value, he hasn’t made amends to the relatives of the nine who died in the Indian riots. There’s no likelyhood that he will. No matter what he does now, his words will still be felt in increased antipathy towards the US. He hasn’t apologized for that, and I’ve no problem with seeing the asshole pay a price for inflaming _more_ of the world against us. If Jerry’s payment involves being hunted by religious fanatics, so much the better. Let the punishment fit the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/42 "2002-10-13T15:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I’m not cheering. I just think it’s kind of typical. I mean, it’s like, Falwell does this, so they issue a death threat. Then he’ll curse them with an eternity in Hell, and they’ll say that Allah will curse him and so forth. > > It’s insane. > > Or maybe I’m just not taking it seriously. \*\* Guin, the difference is that Falwell’s words are just that: words. Stupid, evil, hate-filled words, but just words. The Imam’s actually put out a contract on Falwell’s head. He is actually telling people to try to kill Falwell. It’s not just a death ‘threat’, it’s the Imam calling for a hit on Falwell. If they were just shrieking back and forth “You’re going to hell”/“No YOU are!”/“No, YOU are!”, I’d be equally amused. But this ain’t that. I don’t like the idea that some barbarian thug can call for the actual murder of someone for something they said, however stupid and hateful (and yes, also barbaric) the statement was. Falwell didn’t put someone’s life in danger, the Imam did. Those of you who think this is funny, read some of what Salman Rushide went through while the Fatwa was on his him (it’s been removed, I believe). _NO_ mere words, however racist deserve the death penalty. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/43 "2002-10-13T15:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The death of that man is a religious duty, but his case should not be tied to the Christian community," Shabestari, a representative of Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, was quoted as saying. Well at least their insane fundamentalists can differenciate between an individual’s behavior and those of his co-religionists. > [@](#): > > In Lebanon Saturday, Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah called on Muslim countries to respond to Falwell who, he said, had “infringed on the prophet (Muhammad’s) dignity.” > > Fadlallah, however, cautioned against resorting to “physical violence” against Falwell, saying Islam is “a religion of mercy and love.” Kind of conflicts with Falwell and Ann Coulter’s lies that no Muslim leader has ever disavowed violence. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/44 "2002-10-13T15:25:10Z")
“If you strike me down, I will become more annoying than you can possibly imagine.” I’d really rather he not become a martyr. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/45 "2002-10-13T16:02:32Z")
Well I note by the newslink that Falwell didn’t actually retract his statement, only said: "I sincerely apologize that certain statements of mine made during an interview for (the Oct. 6 edition of) CBS’s ‘60 Minutes’ were hurtful to the feelings of many Muslims. “I intended no disrespect to any sincere, law abiding Muslim,” Not quite a retraction. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/46 "2002-10-13T16:09:41Z")
Christianity is a violent religion founded by terrorists. Of course, I intend no disrespect to any sincere, law abiding Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/47 "2002-10-13T16:22:14Z")
If the Imam and the Reverend were Dopers, the Imam would be banned. In theory, that is. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Green\_Feather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@The\_Green\_Feather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Green_Feather)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/48 "2002-10-13T16:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dangerosa \* > > As a point of information, the fatwa against Rushdie was lifted several years ago. So Rushdie is off the hook. The only one who can lift a fatwa is the one who issued it, and he’s dead. Rushdie still isn’t safe. A hardcore Muslim fundie will still be required to try and wack him. On a lighter note, I’d be happy if Jerry and his ilk simply lost their voices for a couple of years. Wouldn’t it be fun to watch him try to preach in charades? "First word… Two syllables… Could it be… **SATAN!!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/49 "2002-10-13T17:04:36Z")
\*\*Doghouse Reilly wrote: Sorry, I don’t buy into this kind of cultural relativism, any more than I agree that there’s any excuse for widows being burned alive in traditional India, young girls having their feet bound in imperial China, or infant girls having their genitals mutilated in some parts of today’s Africa and the Middle East.\*\* And what you’re preaching is cultural imperialism; saying you have the right to impose your values on another culture because, somehow, yours are superior. Who decides who’s values are “superior” and for what reason? **BTW, Freyr, what should we do if we happen to see a Muslim mob chasing you? Should we just accept their values and mores?** First of all, I wouldn’t go out of my way to directly and intentionally insult a Muslim country’s faith. If I should ever travel in a country or region where Islam is the dominant faith, I’d be respectful of their laws, rules and values. Secondly, given what Falwell has said about the GLBT community, I would be hard pressed for a reason to rescue him from his own foolishness. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/50 "2002-10-13T18:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > On this one, I’m right behind gobear. Huh. Me too. Hey, if **Joe Cool, gobear, Freyr** , and I are all in agreement on a quasi-religious issue, is that a sign of the immanence of the End Times? 🙂 **freyr** : You mean Ragnarok, don’t you? **me** : Shut up, Freyr! 😃 This thread is in need of an apposite Karen Armstrong quote about fundamentalists at odds with one another. However, I don’t have any of her works on hand to post it. One thing, however, I think is worth saying: > [@](#): > > 27 "But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. F55 Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. > > 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” > (Luke 6:27-38) ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/51 "2002-10-13T20:23:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > **On this one, I’m right behind gobear. You people (the ones laughing and cheering for falwell’s death) are disgusting, bloodthirsty bastards. You all think the idea of a psychopath in another country condemning a US citizen to death is funny?** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Eleusis_ > \*\*Good news? Hurray! Religious fanatics on the other side of the world issued a death warrant for a U.S. citizen! Joyous day! > \*\* Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/52 "2002-10-13T20:35:01Z")
I think I need to clarify something. \*\*Doghouse Reilly wrote: Sorry, I don’t buy into this kind of cultural relativism, any more than I agree that there’s any excuse for widows being burned alive in traditional India, young girls having their feet bound in imperial China, or infant girls having their genitals mutilated in some parts of today’s Africa and the Middle East.\*\* **Doghouse Reilly** , you’re right, those are all horrific things happening and I do wish they’d stop. However, by stepping in and forcing those people to stop following those cultural practices is as big a “sin” as the practices themselves. I hope that those people realize those traditions do more harm than good and give them up voluntarily. **BTW, Freyr, what should we do if we happen to see a Muslim mob chasing you? Should we just accept their values and mores?** You analogy is inaccurate. My simply being homosexual is not the same thing as making deliberate, inflammatory comments about another religion and its founder. If I were to do something as stupid as what Falwell did, then yes, I deserve to be chased by a mob intending to do me harm. Again, I don’t think this fetwa against Falwell is right but neither were his foolish comments. I do value human life. I don’t value stupidity. \*\*Polycarp wrote: Hey, if Joe Cool, gobear, Freyr, and I are all in agreement on a quasi-religious issue, is that a sign of the immanence of the End Times?\*\* Speak a little louder, okay, **Polycarp**? There’s this pig stuck at the top of this tree outside my apt. and he’s squealing loudly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/53 "2002-10-13T21:10:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dryga\_Yes \* > \*\*Huh? \*\* Huh what? The title of this thread is “Good news:…” I don’t think it’s good news. I used sarcasm to convey a point. What is **your** point? ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/54 "2002-10-13T21:19:52Z")
\*\*Joe\_Cool wrote: On this one, I’m right behind gobear.\*\* If you have a nice, furry, muscular, chest, I’m sure he’d like you there, too. 😃 Wow, now I’ll get death threats from **TWO** people! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/55 "2002-10-13T23:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > Since mere Great-Satan unbelievers (non-Muslims) are not permitted to enter Mecca, that could be tough. \*\* Non-Muslims. No adjectives, no need for the childish confusion of Iranian political lang. with the old rule about Mecca and Medina. In re > [@](#): > > The only one who can lift a fatwa is the one who issued it, and he’s dead. Rushdie still isn’t safe. A hardcore Muslim fundie will still be required to try and wack him. Rot. Depends on one’s theology - Islam and even Shi’a Islam is very bit as chaotic as Protestant Xianity. “Rank” is really an issue of getting an audience, in the end. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/56 "2002-10-14T00:36:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > I think I need to clarify something. > > \*\*Doghouse Reilly wrote: > > Sorry, I don’t buy into this kind of cultural relativism, any more than I agree that there’s any excuse for widows being burned alive in traditional India, young girls having their feet bound in imperial China, or infant girls having their genitals mutilated in some parts of today’s Africa and the Middle East.\*\* > > **Doghouse Reilly** , you’re right, those are all horrific things happening and I do wish they’d stop. However, by stepping in and forcing those people to stop following those cultural practices is as big a “sin” as the practices themselves. I hope that those people realize those traditions do more harm than good and give them up voluntarily. Uh… no. I don’t agree. If this is so, I’ll wear the title of “cultural imperialist” proudly. These practices are WRONG. Period. The fact that my culture shuns them and another culture embraces them makes my culture, in this area, RIGHT. And I am perfectly willing to step in and force them to stop, because the lives of the women that are lost or damaged outweigh any duty I owe to respecting cultural differences. I can’t prove this assertion, of course, since there is no universally accepted yardstick for what is right. Nonetheless, I’m very confident of the rightness of stopping barbaric practices such as you describe. - Rick, Cultural Imperialist And Damned Proud Of It ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/57 "2002-10-14T02:09:32Z")
So a fatwa is like a hit? I thought it was more, like, “We’re gonna kick your ass” type of thing, or just something like that? I thought it was more generalized. I didn’t think it was a serious actual intention-I thought it was more passive. I don’t want to see him murdered, and I can’t say I feel sorry for him. Would it be weaseling to say I don’t think it’s so funny anymore? I mean, it would be if they were both threatening each other with hell fire… Although I have to say, I can see the interesting thing is that Falwell has finally stepped over the line. Or at least hope this teaches him to watch his mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/58 "2002-10-14T02:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*\*\*Doghouse Reilly wrote: > > Sorry, I don’t buy into this kind of cultural relativism, any more than I agree that there’s any excuse for widows being burned alive in traditional India, young girls having their feet bound in imperial China, or infant girls having their genitals mutilated in some parts of today’s Africa and the Middle East.\*\* > > And what you’re preaching is cultural imperialism; saying you have the right to impose your values on another culture because, somehow, yours are superior. > > Who decides who’s values are “superior” and for what reason? > > **BTW, Freyr, what should we do if we happen to see a Muslim mob chasing you? Should we just accept their values and mores?** > > First of all, I wouldn’t go out of my way to directly and intentionally insult a Muslim country’s faith. If I should ever travel in a country or region where Islam is the dominant faith, I’d be respectful of their laws, rules and values. > > Secondly, given what Falwell has said about the GLBT community, I would be hard pressed for a reason to rescue him from his own foolishness. \*\* Guess you didn’t check out the link that I provided in my earlier post, when I asked “Freyr, what should we do if we happen to see a Muslim mob chasing [you](http://www.ilga.org/Information/legal_survey/middle%20east/iran.htm)?” So here’s a few excerpts: > [@](#): > > Iran has adopted an extreme position in developing an Islamic constitution and bringing its legal system in line with strict Shari’a law, under which homosexual behaviour is illegal. > The Embassy of Iran in The Hague wrote in 1987 that “homosexuality in Iran, treated according to the Islamic law, is a sin in the eyes of God and a crime for society. In Islam generally homosexuality is among the worst possible sins you can imagine” (PB). > > Under Iran’s 1991 Islamic penal law the position is as follows: > > Male homosexuality > > Sodomy is a crime, for which both partners are punished. The punishment is death if the participants are adults, of sound mind and consenting; the method of execution is for the Shari’a judge to decide. A non-adult who engages in consensual sodomy is subject to a punishment of 74 lashes. (Articles 108 – 113) > > . . . > > The law in practice > > There are various reports of the above laws being applied: > > According to Amnesty International at least three gay men and two lesbians were killed in January 1990, as a result of the Iranian government’s policy of calling for the execution of homosexuals. They were publicly beheaded. > > In April 1992 Dr Ali Mozafarian, a Sunni Muslim leader in Fars province (Southern Iran) was executed in Shiraz. He was convicted on charges of espionage, adultery and sodomy. His videotaped confession was broadcast on television in Shiraz and in the streets of Kazerun and Lar. (IOC) > > On 14 March 1994 dissident writer Ali Akbar Saidi Sirjani was charged with offences ranging from espionage to homosexual improprieties. (IOC) > > On 12th November 1995, by the verdict of the eighth judicial branch of Hamadan, and the confirmation of the Supreme Court of Iran, Mehdi Barazandeh, otherwise known as Safa Ali Shah Hamadani, was condemned to death. The judicial authorities announced that Barazandeh’s crimes were repeated acts of adultery and “the obscene act of sodomy”. The court’s decree was carried out by stoning Barazandeh. Barazandeh belonged to the Khaksarieh Sect of Dervishes. (Islamic Republic Newspaper - November 14th 1995 – reported in Homan’s magazine 10 June 96) > > Another execution was reported in Hamadan more recently by the Washington Blade, quoting Reuters: Ali Sharifi was hanged for having gay sex. He had also been convicted of adultery, drinking alcohol and drug dealing. (IB 1/98/3) So Freyr, you don’t have to “go out of your way” to offend Muslims–you do so simply by being what you _are_. And I ask you again, if you found yourself facing death at the hands of a Muslim mob for the crime of being gay, should we do anything to intervene? Or would saving your life be “cultural imperialism”? ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/59 "2002-10-14T03:10:24Z")
Errrrr… can you really **threaten** a christian with death? Since he’s going to heaven when he dies, why would Falwell **mind** having someone murder him? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009/60 "2002-10-14T04:00:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*So a fatwa is like a hit? I thought it was more, like, “We’re gonna kick your ass” type of thing, or just something like that? I thought it was more generalized. I didn’t think it was a serious actual intention-I thought it was more passive. \*\* No. They’re supposed to hunt him down and actually kill him. They’re trying to whack him. \*\* > [@](#): > > Would it be weaseling to say I don’t think it’s so funny anymore? > I mean, it would be if they were both threatening each other with hell fire…\*\* I agree. “You’re goin’ to H-E-Double Hockey-Sticks you heathen, you!” “No! You’re going to burn, infidel dog!” “Am not!” “Are too!” 🙂 Fenris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-a-fatwa-on-reverend-falwell/132009.md?page=4)