# Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/1 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")
From [this article.](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CRIMINAL_IMMIGRANTS?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2007-01-08-08-55-21): > [@](#): > > The findings by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine are based on a sampling of 100 illegal immigrants arrested by local and state authorities in 2004, the latest complete data available. They show that 73 of the 100 immigrants were arrested, collectively, 429 times - ranging from traffic tickets to weapons and drug charges. > > Fine’s office said its audit could not conclude precisely how many of the 262,105 illegal immigrants charged with criminal histories that year had been re-arrested. “But if this data is indicative of the full population of 262,105 criminal histories, the rate at which released criminal aliens are re-arrested is extremely high,” the audit noted. So, assuming these numbers hold up, at a rate of 429 arrests per 100, without those illegals here we would have had 1,124,409 fewer arrests in the U.S. But wait, (apoligist excuses rationalizations go here). Think I’ll make some popcorn. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/2 "2007-01-08T21:21:43Z")
Traffic tickets? Oh noes! I’ll bet there were a lot more traffic tickets than weapons charges, in which case, so fucking what? ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/3 "2007-01-08T21:25:24Z")
I want more information. Of those 100, how many of them have arrest records and criminal records? What is the number of traffic arrests versus weapons arrests versus drug arrests versus violent crime arrests? Is this something to take into consideration? Something to be concerned about? Absolutely. Is this one quote enough to forcibly remove all illegal immigrants regardless of their other characteristics? No. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/4 "2007-01-08T21:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Traffic tickets? Oh noes! I’ll bet there were a lot more traffic tickets than weapons charges, in which case, so fucking what? [/QUOTE] Nice start. But I’m sure things will pick up. But I’ll ask you, what number of these non-traffic violations would you deem acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/5 "2007-01-08T21:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Traffic tickets? Oh noes! [/QUOTE] Yeah. So what. Some cop was chasing down Johnny FenceJumper for a broken taillight while your wife was getting raped. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/6 "2007-01-08T21:31:52Z")
So what’s the thesis here? Some criminals commit more than one crime? Just asking… I want to be sure I know which facts to ignore and which to rationalize. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/7 "2007-01-08T21:34:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Traffic tickets? Oh noes! I’ll bet there were a lot more traffic tickets than weapons charges, in which case, so fucking what? [/QUOTE] To be fair, these were (according to the article) specifically _arrests_. It’s not like saying ‘they received a traffic ticket.’ They were _arrested_ for them, which means they were taken into custody. Either the traffic infractions were egregious (like reckless driving or DWI,) or they were not paying their existing tickets and an officer had to be dispatched to take them into custody. Any way you slice it, it means a not insignificant expense to the municipalities in terms of police time, jail space, paperwork, etc. These guys cost more than they cross the border to earn - it would make more sense to pay them to stay in their country of origin. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/8 "2007-01-08T21:38:34Z")
**magellan01** , if you have a point to make about illegals, then could you please just make it? I gather that you don’t like them and think they should all be sent back to wherever they come from. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/9 "2007-01-08T21:46:36Z")
The full report is available [here](http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/OJP/a0707/final.pdf). From the report (pp. 29-30): > [@](#): > > …[W]e reviewed a judgmental sample of 100 criminal histories for evidence of arrests of individuals subsequent to the time when their incarceration was used to support an application for SCAAP funding. > > We sampled 53 from records that had FBI numbers and 47 from records that lacked such numbers.[Footnote: This number is issued by the FBI to track arrests and fingerprint records.] The criminal histories for 73 individuals documented at least one arrest after June 30, 2003. Those 73 individuals accounted for a total of 429 arrests based on 878 charges and included 241 convictions. These figures represent an average of nearly six arrests per individual. > > The charges for the 73 individuals ranged from traffic violations and trespassing to more serious crimes, such as burglary or assault. Some of those charges included: > • 166 drug-related; > • 37 immigration-related; > • 213 burglary, robbery, or theft; > • 40 assault; > • 10 property damage; > • 3 terrorist threat; [Footnote: The “terrorist threat” cases related to misdemeanor charges based on domestic disputes.] and > • 13 weapons charges. > > Based on this limited sample, we cannot statistically extrapolate the number of offenses committed by undocumented criminal aliens who were released from local custody without a referral to ICE. Based on the information available to us in the criminal histories, we could not determine the number of the criminal aliens in our sample that were deported, if any, and later arrested after reentering the United States. We also could not determine if ICE was notified before the criminal aliens in our sample were released from custody. But if this data is indicative of the full population of nearly 262,105 criminal histories, the rate at which released criminal aliens are rearrested is extremely high. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/10 "2007-01-08T21:51:13Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] To be fair, these were (according to the article) specifically _arrests_. It’s not like saying ‘they received a traffic ticket.’ They were _arrested_ for them, which means they were taken into custody. Either the traffic infractions were egregious (like reckless driving or DWI,) or they were not paying their existing tickets and an officer had to be dispatched to take them into custody. Any way you slice it, it means a not insignificant expense to the municipalities in terms of police time, jail space, paperwork, etc. These guys cost more than they cross the border to earn - it would make more sense to pay them to stay in their country of origin. [/QUOTE] maybe, although IME (30 years working w/offenders) if you don’t have a valid driver’s license and are caught driving, you will indeed be arrested. In any case, I’m always **very** leary of data which is presented in the way of the OP’s quote (“offenses ranging from traffic to drugs/weapons”), noting, too, that in some jurisdictions one can get arreseted for parking violations as well. Also the 'sampling" was of those arrested. So, who’s surprised that some one who’d been arrested, was well, arrested? this gives no productive data wrt to folks who were illegals but hadn’t been arrested. to that end (and speaking specifically on the issue presented by the OP - the suggestion that crime would drastically be reduced by the rounding up and deportation of illegals), I’ve worked w/offenders in the community for 30 years, and the **vast, vast** majority of my clients are home grown as it were. so, in my experience, the mass rounding up of illegals would have very little (if any statistically relevant) effect on the crime rate. feel free to be outraged on any other aspect of the issue, though. I would suggest that this, like many other issues, does not have a simple “either or” kind of solution. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/11 "2007-01-08T21:51:36Z")
[QUOTE=Gatopescado] Yeah. So what. Some cop was chasing down Johnny FenceJumper for a broken taillight while your wife was getting raped. [/QUOTE] Wow, what a bullshit argument. Are you suggesting that in the absence of illegal immigrants that police departments would shut down their traffic enforcement divisions? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/12 "2007-01-08T22:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Wow, what a bullshit argument. Are you suggesting that in the absence of illegal immigrants that police departments would shut down their traffic enforcement divisions? [/QUOTE] I suspect the underlying argument is that “any police department in the face of finite resources should prioritize their activities, so that more time is spent on serious crime vs. relatively minor infractions”. But maybe they meant something else. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/13 "2007-01-08T22:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > the latest complete data available. They show that 73 of the 100 immigrants were arrested, collectively, 429 times - ranging from traffic tickets to weapons and drug charges. Anyone have any idea what the figure would be for regular US citizens, or is a proven fact that Johnny BlueStripe only commits a year and immediately turns himself in to the police? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/14 "2007-01-08T22:10:57Z")
I’m no statistician but is 100 an accurate sampling size? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/15 "2007-01-08T22:13:12Z")
> [@](#): > > maybe, although IME (30 years working w/offenders) if you don’t have a valid driver’s license and are caught driving, you will indeed be arrested. Precisely. And why can’t they get a valid driver’s license? Because of draconian and xenophobic immigration laws. I can’t personally blame a man for illegally immigrating when the economic disparity between Mexico and the US is so vast. Hell, the potential benefits would probably be worth any risk, up to and including the possibility of getting your ass shot off while crossing. You gotta feed your family, man. Honestly, I also think that the US is creating this “crime wave” by way of these “tough on illegal immigration” laws, in the same way that the War on Drugs has created a bigger crime problem than it ever solved. Let them in. We have the room, and the finances to help them out, and they, in turn, can do nothing but help us…provided we ever allow them out of the barrio. We are a nation made up of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/16 "2007-01-08T22:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] **magellan01** , if you have a point to make about illegals, then could you please just make it? I gather that you don’t like them and think they should all be sent back to wherever they come from. [/QUOTE] Sorry, **tdn** , I fugured most of those interested in this thread would have been people I’ve debated with on this topic before. I am adamantly anti-illegal immigration. We need to do whatever we need to do to secure our borders now. We should be able to shut it down completely and know everyone who is coming in, and give them a criminal background check and health check. When we want/need more immigrants, particulalry seasonal labor, we should be able to easily and quickly let in the number we deem appropriate. To do this we need to refrorm our antiquated immigration laws. Given slots available, there is no reason whty coming into the country shold take as long as it often does. So, 1. Secure border: fence, more agents, surveillance whatever is needed 2. Seriously go after employers of illegals (turning off the magnet) 3. As illegals are found, deport them 4. Speed up the processing of those waiting to come here legally 5. Create a program that rewards the illegals who are here for going home and getting in line 6. Withold federal funds from any municipality that declares itself a sanctuary for illegals 7. Prevent illegal children from attending schools (again, turn off the magnet) 8. Pass a Constitutional Amendment (or simply revisit it for a correct ruling) that doeas away with the 14th Amendment, which grants citizenship to children of illegals born here 9. Build more facilities to hold illegals as they are found 10. Bill the home country for all medical care supplied to illegals 11. Bill the home country for incarceration of illegals 12. Make English the Official Language You get the idea. If this interests you, I can recommend Pat Buchanan’s _State of Emergency_. He puts forth the true Conservative position. **zut,** thanks for supplying the link to the study. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/17 "2007-01-08T22:22:12Z")
Your position is heartless, idiotic, and xenophobic. Honestly, it reminds me of Bill Cutting’s position in _Gangs of New York_. “America for Americans!” It’s repulsive. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/18 "2007-01-08T22:22:00Z")
Your position is heartless, idiotic, and xenophobic. Honestly, it reminds me of Bill Cutting’s position is _Gangs of New York_. “America for Americans!” It’s repulsive. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/19 "2007-01-08T22:23:43Z")
Out of interest, **magellan** (I don’t want to get into the whole immigration debate, since i’ll be the first to admit I know little one way or the other) what does the last item on your list do to help curb illegal immigration? It seems like just a cosmetic change. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/20 "2007-01-08T22:24:37Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] 1. Pass a Constitutional Amendment (or simply revisit it for a correct ruling) that doeas away with the 14th Amendment, which grants citizenship to children of illegals born here [/QUOTE] Actually, the 14th Amendment does a bit more than that, but this isn’t the first time you’ve been talking out of your ass about things you don’t understand. Here’s the text: \*Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability. Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void. Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. \* > **[The Fourteenth Amendment - FindLaw](https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment14.html)** > > The Fourteenth Amendment ushered in a new era of civil rights in America. This FindLaw article offers an overview of the Amendment. And, BTW, your OP is pure trolling. The popcorn bit is a bit obvious, even for you. Fuckwit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=2)