# Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/181 "2007-01-11T12:39:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] And a few hundred years ago the Spanish came and killed thousands of Mexicans and imposed rule and their language on them. What does this 50-150 year old history reminder have to do with the discussion? [/QUOTE] The first was a war of conquest; once the conquest was over, systematic killing was too. I didn’t know that the US was conquering Texas in the XX century… hadn’t the conquest of Texas finished before the War Between The States? ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/182 "2007-01-11T12:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Bolding mine. Everything that you just listed were the arguments of a Bigot. Some of you old boys are just too fucking dumb to realize what you are. [/QUOTE] Either you’ve been whooshed, or TKoS’s satire is too subtle for you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/183 "2007-01-11T13:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] … Everything that you just listed were the arguments of a Bigot. Some of you old boys are just too fucking dumb to realize what you are. [/QUOTE] You know, I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/184 "2007-01-11T14:41:12Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] That may be one of the most biased things I’ve ever read. I got through four paragraphs and was laughing too much to continue. Serioulsy, just read the first four paragrpahs. If you do not see the overt bias there is no helping you. Unbelievable. Of course, YMMV. [/QUOTE] Irony is your strong suit, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/185 "2007-01-11T15:06:50Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Irony is your strong suit, I see. [/QUOTE] Actually, if you think about it, that’s a pretty illuminating confession on his part. Clearly he has the astonishing capacity to write his own posts without actually reading them. Makes quite a bit of sense, it does. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/186 "2007-01-11T16:05:05Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Eva Luna, GIGObuster, and CBEscapee have done that in this thread several times. Every thread that you have ever made concerning immigration, supremacy of your culture in the US (and how it is the primary, best US culture), or Islam has always been your bigoted lies refuted by truth. You’re just too stubborn or stupid to realize it when someone hands you your ass on a consistent basis on about every thread participate in. [/QUOTE] Just as I figured. You got nothing. YOU made an accusation, I called you on it and you can not defend _your_ lies. I thank you for clearing that up. I repeat the request. Here it is: [QUOTE=magellan01] Define that “ilk” you have in mind, if you would be so kind. What kind of people are you referring to when you say “You and your ilk”? While you’re at it, what are these “lies”? Please point to 1) the statement I made, 2)why you know it to be factually incorrect, and 3) evidence that I knew what I stated to be false. [/QUOTE] So come, on genius. You opened your big mouth. Back it up. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/187 "2007-01-11T16:11:47Z")
[QUOTE=zagloba] Either you’ve been whooshed, or TKoS’s satire is too subtle for you. [/QUOTE] Of course, there is another possible reason Unregistered Bull couldn’t decipher the rather overt sarcasm: stupidity. I’d have to go with that one. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/188 "2007-01-11T18:41:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] In looking for more up to date numbers I found [this from CIS](http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html)… [this from the LA Times Opinion Borderline](http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/2006/05/according_to_th.html) (it served as a good compilation) [/QUOTE] Other posters have already explained the problems with the Center for Immigration Studies. Here’s what the LA Times Opinion Borderline now has to say about the list of “facts.” > [@](#): > > Just the Facts–UPDATED > > According to the search service Technorati, at least 130 weblogs have recently posted 10 “facts” about immigration, allegedly coming from the L.A. Times. As Readers’ Representative Jamie Gold has pointed out, this list, which is being forwarded around the world at lightning speed, is a hoax. > > We combed our archives to see whether the paper has indeed written anything like these facts, and found just one Op-ed column — by leading anti-immigration figure Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Col.) — that comes close to stating what the e-mail hoax claims. Meanwhile, we’ve tried to assess the veracity of the various statistics from online sources as well as representatives of federal, state, county, and city officials. We’ll continue to post more details as we receive them. Here are the results: > **[Archive blogs](https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/)** > > Los Angeles Times blogs that were published between 2006 and 2013. Interesting reading. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/189 "2007-01-11T18:44:15Z")
The following is from this [site](http://www.chriscannon.com/Issues/Immigration/anti-immigration_groups.html) which belongs to a Republican Congressman from Utah (a state famous for its liberal slant) Chris Cannon and originally published in The Wall Street Journal: Below is an excerpt from a March 15, 2004 editorial by Jason Riley, a senior editorial page writer at the Journal. “So determined is conservatism’s nativist wing that it’s even made common cause with radical environmentalists and zero-population-growth fanatics on the leftist fringe. The Federation for American Immigration Reform and the Center for Immigration Studies may strike right-wing poses in the press, but both groups support big government, mock federalism, deride free markets and push a cultural agenda abhorrent to any self-respecting social conservative. FAIR’s founder and former president is John Tanton, an eye doctor who opened the first Planned Parenthood chapter in northern Michigan. By Dr. Tanton’s own reckoning, FAIR has received more than $1.5 million from the Pioneer Fund, a white-supremacist outfit devoted to racial purity through eugenics. Board members of FAIR actively promote the sterilization of Third World women for the purposes of reducing U.S. immigration prospects. And if anything disturbs the good doctor more than those Latin American hordes crossing the Rio Grande, it’s the likelihood that most of them are Catholic, or so he once told a Reuters reporter. CIS, an equally repugnant FAIR offshoot, is a big fan of China’s one-child policy and publishes books advocating looser limits on abortion and wider use of RU-486. CIS considers the Sierra Club, which cites “stabilizing world population” fourth on its 21st century to-do list, as too moderate. And like FAIR, CIS has called for a target U.S. population of 150 million, about half of what it is today. Unlike their counterparts on the restrictionist right, these organizations don’t distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. They want the border sealed as a means to a fanciful, neo-Malthusian end. Both sides, however, do share the same intellectual framework – an overriding pessimism and lack of understanding about markets, which is why both also tend to oppose free trade.“ So have at it snotball. Discredit either of those sources. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/190 "2007-01-11T22:37:30Z")
**CBE** – WTF? So anyone who is concerned about the constant movement of illegal aliens-whose medical care and schooling we have to pay for- into our country supports the shit spouted by Dr Tanton? Or–oops, I forgot–I must be racist. Yep, I want 3rd world women sterilized etc. In fact, let’s just kill all of them-much simpler in the long run. That’s IT! I never knew that about myself before! Gee, it couldn’t be that the INS or whatever it’s called today needs a major overhaul, as do our policies towards immigration–nope, much easier to spew shit about xenophobia and racism. Blame the damned country YOU \*came to build a better life in. Jeebus-I don’t even know what a zero population growth fanatic IS. I DO KNOW that I am as far from a social conservative as can be. (social conservatives tend to welcome those who are pro-birth, oops, sorry-they use the term pro-life. They also welcome Christians wholeheartedly. I am a nomial Christian and completely pro-choice, for starters). \*I don’t know if YOU actually immigrated to this country. I don’t care. If you are here LEGALLY from Mexico, Nigeria, Korea, France-wherever-welcome to America. If you’re here illegally-I do care and I want you gone. Is that clear enough? Hello? Is this on? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/191 "2007-01-11T22:46:53Z")
I never said everyone who opposed illegal immigrationd is a racist. I said, now pay attention, that MANY of the anti-immigrant GROUPS are racist and have shown the CIS to be so. As far as posters on this board specifically, I have said magellan is a stupid fucking racist. Actually I tuned you out when you tried to make some idiotic cultural connection of some sort between hispanic girls born and raised in the US and schools and education in Meixco. That showed your brilliance. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/192 "2007-01-11T22:54:36Z")
I mentioned a story on NPR re the lousy schools in Mexico. I also mentioned the high dropout rates of Hispanic youth here-no matter their immigrant status, also from NPR. I trust NPR as a source of factual information over your posts. Question (that you never answered): if things are so great south of the border now, with extreme poverty down to 17% and all, per your post–why no reduction in the flow of illegals over that border? Methinks that things are not that great down there, still. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/193 "2007-01-11T22:55:54Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] **CBE** – WTF? So anyone who is concerned about the constant movement of illegal aliens-whose medical care and schooling we have to pay for- into our country supports the shit spouted by Dr Tanton? [/QUOTE] I can’t speak for CBEscapee, and could be wrong about his target audience, but I don’t think he’s saying that at all. He’s specifically speaking to those who continuously toss up cites from Tanton and Rushton sources as if they are the holy grail, even after being shown (repeatedly, again and again and fucking again), that both Tanton and Rushton are racists with agendas, and therefore not exactly the most unbiased sources of data that one is likely to find in this area. There are indeed a few folks who actually have a problem with illegal immigration who are likely not racist at all. Those people, once shown the true colors of the folks behind FAIR, its offshoot CIS, VDARE, etc., back off very quickly from them. The same can’t be said about his intended target(s). ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/194 "2007-01-11T23:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I mentioned a story on NPR re the lousy schools in Mexico. I also mentioned the high dropout rates of Hispanic youth here-no matter their immigrant status, also from NPR. I trust NPR as a source of factual information over your posts. Question (that you never answered): if things are so great south of the border now, with extreme poverty down to 17% and all, per your post–why no reduction in the flow of illegals over that border? Methinks that things are not that great down there, still. [/QUOTE] You are really not very bright are you? I never said things are “great”. That’s your description. I answered specific questions you asked about social conditions. Methinks you’re not too bright. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/195 "2007-01-11T23:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I’m sorry, did you not realize that the practical aspect of having English as the official language would be to not have to print they myriad forms in heavens knows how many languages? Does that change your view? [/quote] It’s only the practical aspect because you define it as such. Making English the national language =/ making all official documents English. The French government are being extremely careful to try and protect the French language, yet I can get information on their laws and codes from them in English, Spanish, and Italian. Scotland recognise English, Scots Gaelic and Scots as being officially equivalent, but I can get forms from them in many different languages. If for you it’s just a logical step from one to the other, that’s fine. But for others it isn’t, so I think it’s really something you should add to your list of wants. After all, more communication is always good (as long as it’s in English ;)) > [@](#): > > As per my post, if I moved to Country X I’d want to avail myself of the most job opportunities; take advantage of cultural opportunities like plays, lectures, even movies; go into one of the many restaurants and be able to read the menu, read signs that have been put up because someone thought they are value, read communications from companies and the government, ask someone walking down the street a question, Have more options on my television, read ingrediants and warnings on packages, be able to call up my health insurance comnpany and ask a question, read a simple contract, etc. > > While it is possible to get by, I would be doing myself a disservice by limiting myself so much. And that’s fine. But surely that is a matter for you, and not for the government? Why should they force you to take advantage of these oppurtunities? You could also improve your chances of work by being forced to take a university degree, train as an HGV driver, or any other of the myriad ways you could help yourself out. What’s the difference between those things and learning a common language? It might be nice, but we don’t have a right to force help on someone. And it is a common language, not the only one. You seem to be forgetting job oppurtunities where a language other than English is useful, go to plays, lectures, and movies in a foreign language, read signs that are symbolic rather than in English, ask someone walking down the street who speaks their language a question, switch languages on their TV, read ingredients and warnings on foreign products. As for the government communications and health insurance companies - aren’t you arguing that the U.S. should _enforce_ the use of English? You could solve this problem by simply printing those myriad forms in those different languages. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/196 "2007-01-12T03:39:50Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] I can’t speak for CBEscapee, and could be wrong about his target audience, but I don’t think he’s saying that at all. He’s specifically speaking to those who continuously toss up cites from Tanton and Rushton sources as if they are the holy grail, even after being shown (repeatedly, again and again and fucking again), that both Tanton and Rushton are racists with agendas, and therefore not exactly the most unbiased sources of data that one is likely to find in this area. [/QUOTE] Agreed. I thought he was painting with too broad a brush. But surely these morons are not the only folks concerned with illegal immigration? Mainstream media has done coverage on this issue-TIME mag and NewsWeek come to mind. Most of America is against illegal immigration-which is why I take issue with your statement below: > [@](#): > > There are indeed a few folks who actually have a problem with illegal immigration who are likely not racist at all. Those people, once shown the true colors of the folks behind FAIR, its offshoot CIS, VDARE, etc., back off very quickly from them. The same can’t be said about his intended target(s). I question the “few”. I think it should be most, not few. This is somewhat dated, but still true enough. (see link). [NPR report](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4075602) Now, some of that 70% may be racist, but surely not all-not even close to all, IMO. I can’t find more current figures, sorry. I did find a blog that seemed reasonable until the last paragraph–he mis-spelled “lose” as “loose” (a pet peeve of mine-and it’s enough to make me question his intelligence) and talked of inciting the evangelical base. I am leery of evangelical anything. Here it is, for shits and giggles. [Immigration-the 800 pound gorilla](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4075602). Whatever the case, it’s an issue that is not going to go away. I really don’t see a reason to embrace those who came here illegally. A line must be drawn somewhere-other countries have very strict policies regarding this issue-why not USA? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/197 "2007-01-12T05:22:34Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] Agreed. I thought he was painting with too broad a brush. But surely these morons are not the only folks concerned with illegal immigration? Mainstream media has done coverage on this issue-TIME mag and NewsWeek come to mind. Most of America is against illegal immigration-which is why I take issue with your statement below: I question the “few”. I think it should be most, not few. This is somewhat dated, but still true enough. (see link). [NPR report](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4075602) Now, some of that 70% may be racist, but surely not all-not even close to all, IMO. I can’t find more current figures, sorry. I did find a blog that seemed reasonable until the last paragraph–he mis-spelled “lose” as “loose” (a pet peeve of mine-and it’s enough to make me question his intelligence) and talked of inciting the evangelical base. I am leery of evangelical anything. Here it is, for shits and giggles. [Immigration-the 800 pound gorilla](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4075602). Whatever the case, it’s an issue that is not going to go away. I really don’t see a reason to embrace those who came here illegally. A line must be drawn somewhere-other countries have very strict policies regarding this issue-why not USA? [/QUOTE] How broad should the brush be? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/198 "2007-01-12T07:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] If for you it’s just a logical step from one to the other, that’s fine. But for others it isn’t, so I think it’s really something you should add to your list of wants. After all, more communication is always good (as long as it’s in English ;)) [/QUOTE] Point taken. The two were perfectly tied in my mind. Thanks for pointing out an assumption I was making that may have led/lead to miscommunication. Consider it added to the list. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] IAnd that’s fine. But surely that is a matter for you, and not for the government? Why should they force you to take advantage of these oppurtunities? [/QUOTE] The more that people can better themselves the better it is for a society. I think it is the same with education. The government is helping encourage a better society for all when we educate our children. And keep in mind, in my scenario the governement is doing less and spending less by printing things in only opne language. It’s not that they’re takin an additional step when decidiing to offer documents in one language. I will clarify that making English the Official Language does not mean that no information will be offered in other languages, ony that the U.S. governement not do it. Foreign consulates, immigrant groups, clubs, whatever, could always provide whatever information they deem helpful. [QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] - aren’t you arguing that the U.S. should _enforce_ the use of English? You could solve this problem by simply printing those myriad forms in those different languages. [/QUOTE] I’m a little unclear what you mean by this. I’ll just say that I view being able to speak more than one language is a good thing. And that offering services in more than one language may make for good business and marketing opportunities. Making English the official language would not interfere with either of these things. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/199 "2007-01-12T15:04:38Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] How broad should the brush be? [/QUOTE] Your link does not work. Shall we agree to disagree on whatever it is we are talking about now? This is gettting silly and well, dull. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/200 "2007-01-12T15:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] Your link does not work. Shall we agree to disagree on whatever it is we are talking about now? This is gettting silly and well, dull. [/QUOTE] This one [works](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/13/pzn.01.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=11)