# Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/21 "2007-01-08T22:27:04Z")
Wait. One more thing. > [@](#): > > Seriously go after employers of illegals (turning off the magnet) I think you completely misunderstand the nature of “the magnet.” The magnet is the vast economic disparity between Mexico and the US, and is completely insurmountable by the paltry means you suggest above. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/22 "2007-01-08T22:43:04Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Precisely. And why can’t they get a valid driver’s license? Because of draconian and xenophobic immigration laws. I can’t personally blame a man for illegally immigrating when the economic disparity between Mexico and the US is so vast. Hell, the potential benefits would probably be worth any risk, up to and including the possibility of getting your ass shot off while crossing. You gotta feed your family, man. Honestly, I also think that the US is creating this “crime wave” by way of these “tough on illegal immigration” laws, in the same way that the War on Drugs has created a bigger crime problem than it ever solved. Let them in. We have the room, and the finances to help them out, and they, in turn, can do nothing but help us…provided we ever allow them out of the barrio. We are a nation made up of immigrants. [/QUOTE] We’re also a nation of laws. I don’t see why someone who shouldn’t be here should have a license, vote, etc. There are plenty of people that are waiting on that line to get in. What irks me most is that illegal immigrants bypass that line. I’m all for helping my fellow man, and giving people a shot at a better life, but the rules must be followed. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/23 "2007-01-08T22:50:04Z")
Heh. Good luck with that. If a person is making a dollar a day in a crime-infested, corrupt, broken economy, and just a few miles away, there’s a veritable Promised Land, flowing with prosperity and money, I can’t blame them for wanting to sidestep draconian immigration laws to give themselves a shot at a better life. As long as the economic disparity between Mexico and the US is as huge as it is, there WILL be waves and waves and waves of people desperate to get into this country. By marginalizing them to the extent we have, we virtually guarantee that quite a few of them will become involved in crime. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/24 "2007-01-08T22:56:20Z")
Question: is it heartless and cruel to want to revise our current _jus soli_ approach to citizenship, and replace it with a _jus sanguinis_ approach? Are nations that now use the _jus sanguinis_ method heartless and cruel? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/25 "2007-01-08T22:57:14Z")
You want apologist? OK, I’ll give you apologist. Of late, a very large number of Hispanics have become residents of my neighborhood (People’s Republic of Minnesota). They work their butts off. The mamas meet the school bus and walk their kids home, the kids are healthy, happy and scrubbed within an inch of their lives. Offered a crippled dialogue in lame Spanish, they are helpful and instructive, pleased as punch that you would make the effort. Many of them risked their very _lives_ to be here, and any one of them is worth six pampered Americans, any day of the week. That “apology” enough for yer ass? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/26 "2007-01-08T22:57:41Z")
Poor brown people in America get arrested a lot in America ?! I’m shocked ! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/27 "2007-01-08T22:59:06Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Question: is it heartless and cruel to want to revise our current _jus soli_ approach to citizenship, and replace it with a _jus sanguinis_ approach? Are nations that now use the _jus sanguinis_ method heartless and cruel? [/QUOTE] I’m beginning to suspect that **Bricker** may be a lawyer. No, really… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/28 "2007-01-08T23:00:29Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Question: is it heartless and cruel to want to revise our current _jus soli_ approach to citizenship, and replace it with a _jus sanguinis_ approach? Are nations that now use the _jus sanguinis_ method heartless and cruel? [/QUOTE] Dunno. I’m a biologist, not a lawyer. What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/29 "2007-01-08T23:04:23Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Question: is it heartless and cruel to want to revise our current _jus soli_ approach to citizenship, and replace it with a _jus sanguinis_ approach? Are nations that now use the _jus sanguinis_ method heartless and cruel? [/QUOTE] Question; are you attempting to address the particular point of birthright by blood or are you summing up **Ogre** ’s opinion on **magellan** ’s list and disregarding the idea that he/she might consider other things apart from the Fourteenth Amendment heartless and cruel (or the entirety of **magellan** ’s position)? **Ogre** (because I had to look it up); jus soli - “right of the territory” - In this case, citzenship by being born on U.S. soil. jus sanguinis - “right of blood” - Citizenship through being born to a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/30 "2007-01-08T23:06:19Z")
Is there a control group, here ? I’d like to see a sample of some true-blue American arrestees, for purposes of comparison. And, of course, a more comprehensive description of the nature of the crimes. I’d not be surprised if illegals made up a disproportionate number of the arrests for driving unsafe and uninsured vehicles without a license. I know it’s a cliche, but I’m seeing a heckuva lot of small-contractor type of pickups that look like they’re kept together with prayers, bumperstickers and second-hand chewing gum. For a bored traffic officer, those must be easy pickings, and there could easily be a couple of offenses per car pulled over. No license. Probably no insurance. Very often unsafe vehicles. Thei sort of stuff could easily skew the stats, I suppose. (FTR, I have a huge problem with uninsured motorists and unsafe vehicles, no matter whether they’re driven by legal or illegal residents. Doesn’t help that I commute by a huge sign announcing that this is the place to get your car registered, even if you have no paperwork. The motto is “No ID? No license? No problem” - in Spanish, superimposed over the DMV logo.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/31 "2007-01-08T23:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Dunno. I’m a biologist, not a lawyer. What the hell are you talking about? [/QUOTE] I apologize. “Jus soli” refers to the practice of granting citizenship by right of birth “Jus sanguinis” is the right of citizenship by blood – that, by being born to a citizen ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/32 "2007-01-08T23:07:36Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Heh. Good luck with that. If a person is making a dollar a day in a crime-infested, corrupt, broken economy, and just a few miles away, there’s a veritable Promised Land, flowing with prosperity and money, I can’t blame them for wanting to sidestep draconian immigration laws to give themselves a shot at a better life. As long as the economic disparity between Mexico and the US is as huge as it is, there WILL be waves and waves and waves of people desperate to get into this country. By marginalizing them to the extent we have, we virtually guarantee that quite a few of them will become involved in crime. [/QUOTE] Well that’s why it would make sense to fine the hell out of the companies that hire illegals. Removing the incentive from one end of the equation should help mitigate _some_ of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/33 "2007-01-08T23:08:43Z")
[QUOTE=World Eater] We’re also a nation of laws. I don’t see why someone who shouldn’t be here should have a license, vote, etc. There are plenty of people that are waiting on that line to get in. What irks me most is that illegal immigrants bypass that line. I’m all for helping my fellow man, and giving people a shot at a better life, but the rules must be followed. [/QUOTE] They should have licenses because that way there’s some way to assess whether they are safe to drive. Cuz they’re going to drive anyway. There is no issue with undocumented aliens voting, so that’s a non sequitor. Look, there’s obviously a need for this labor. And even if you think there’s not a need for it, there’s certainly a desire for it. Employers want them here. Whole industries want them here. The reality is that there is a demand for this labor, and ample supply. If there were no jobs here, no one would come here illegally. Why would they? And why aren’t we making pragmatic rules that recognize this reality? Because powerful entities like it the way it is. (Including those entities that profit via building county jails and running county jails to house undocumented immigrants.) Because they benefit from an illegal underclass that works really fucking hard for relatively low wages. Business doesn’t give a crap about how much it costs a municipality or a school district. They only care about their bottom line. (And if that’s not the case, then why was Swift warned days in advance that a raid was coming? Why are they bitching in my local paper about how much the raid cost them???) Lots of people like our fair magellan want to put their heads in the sand and think a 2000 mile-long fence and English only laws will change this reality. And it won’t. I KNOW people who have come here illegally, and believe me they know they’re risking their lives to cross the border, and they do it anyway. And you’d do it, too, if you knew you could make eight times your wages when your family is undernourished or living in a shack or without any opportunities. People all over the world do this, this migrating from no opportunity to opportunity. You want to regulate it in the interests of safety and national security? Fine. But for many people their veiled racism and xenopho bia is showing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/34 "2007-01-08T23:10:16Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] Anyone have any idea what the figure would be for regular US citizens, or is a proven fact that Johnny BlueStripe only commits a year and immediately turns himself in to the police? [/QUOTE] I don’t know, but I do know that people who get arrested get arrested a lot - which is what three strikes laws are all about. I’d also be interested in matching for economic status - you need to see how this population compares to another poor population. How come only 37 of the arrests for illegal immigrants are immigration related? Shouldn’t they all be? I also wonder how the sample was taken. Yes, 100 is fairly small, but if the sample was selected from those with the biggest dossiers it would not be representative. Since repeat offenders may be over represented even in a sequential selection even picking the next 100 arrestees might be inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/35 "2007-01-08T23:10:28Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Question; are you attempting to address the particular point of birthright by blood or are you summing up **Ogre** ’s opinion on **magellan** ’s list and disregarding the idea that he/she might consider other things apart from the Fourteenth Amendment heartless and cruel (or the entirety of **magellan** ’s position)? **Ogre** (because I had to look it up); jus soli - “right of the territory” - In this case, citzenship by being born on U.S. soil. jus sanguinis - “right of blood” - Citizenship through being born to a citizen. [/QUOTE] I appreciate it, **Rev**. I did indeed look the terms up, so I know what they literally mean. I’m assuming that **Bricker** wants me to opine one way or the other so that he can devastate me with legalese. In fact, I suspect that his question is an excluded middle fallacy, since many immigration laws are really a mix of the two, so I’ll wait for the other shoe to drop. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/36 "2007-01-08T23:10:37Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Question; are you attempting to address the particular point of birthright by blood or are you summing up **Ogre** ’s opinion on **magellan** ’s list and disregarding the idea that he/she might consider other things apart from the Fourteenth Amendment heartless and cruel (or the entirety of **magellan** ’s position)? I’m trying to clarify **Ogre** ’s - and anyone else’s - position. **Ogre** may well say: “There’s nothing inherently cruel about wishing to change our method of granting citizenship, and nothing inherently cruel about countries that use jus sanguinis. It is only other parts of **magellan** ’s approach that I find cruel.” Or, in contrast, he might say, “It’s wrong for this or any country to deny citizenship to any person born in its borders; jus soli citizenship should be considered a natural right all over the world.” I’m trying to explore which of these general positions he, and others in this thread, hold. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/37 "2007-01-08T23:11:53Z")
[QUOTE=World Eater] Well that’s why it would make sense to fine the hell out of the companies that hire illegals. Removing the incentive from one end of the equation should help mitigate _some_ of the problem. [/QUOTE] That’s never going to happen. Just talk to the meat packing plant owners who got an entire INS operation shut down because they raised holy hell that it was interfering with their production. And no, not the latest Swift raid. Business will NEVER be the ones to suffer as a means to fix this “problem”. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/38 "2007-01-08T23:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=World Eater] Well that’s why it would make sense to fine the hell out of the companies that hire illegals. Removing the incentive from one end of the equation should help mitigate _some_ of the problem. [/QUOTE] In a perfect world, yes. In reality, what I suspect would happen is that companies would develop more clever ways to hide that they are employing illegals. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/39 "2007-01-08T23:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=niblet\_head] That’s never going to happen. Just talk to the meat packing plant owners who got an entire INS operation shut down because they raised holy hell that it was interfering with their production. And no, not the latest Swift raid. Business will NEVER be the ones to suffer as a means to fix this “problem”. [/QUOTE] Sure, I’ll agree with you there. I doubt anyone would get elected on that platform. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/40 "2007-01-08T23:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] In a perfect world, yes. In reality, what I suspect would happen is that companies would develop more clever ways to hide that they are employing illegals. [/QUOTE] Good, find more clever ways to bust them. /never will happen, but one can hope [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=3)