# Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/81 "2007-01-09T04:12:03Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Actually much of the debate was about limiting citizenship based on race. Denying citizenship to people considered racially inferior. “Senator Edgar Cowan of Pennsylvania added “Are the people of California are to remain quiescent while they are being overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongrel (Chinese) race? Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by the Chinese? I think not…there are nations of people with whom theft is a virtue and falsehood a merit… it is necessary, a part of the nature of things, that society shall be more or less exclusive. It is utterly and totally impossible to mingle all of the various families of men, from the lowest form of the Hottentot, up to the highest Caucasian, in the same society”” Your not a descendent of this guy, are you magellan? [/QUOTE] I LOVE IT!!! You found a way to call me a racist without using the word. You learned a new trick **CB**. Here’s a little pat on your head, now go back into your room and try not to disturb the adults. But I’m happy for ya, really. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/82 "2007-01-09T04:18:42Z")
Why try to deny it magellan? Anybody with an IQ above 60 can see you for what you are which is a racist piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/83 "2007-01-09T04:24:06Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Why try to deny it magellan? Anybody with an IQ above 60 can see you for what you are which is a racist piece of shit. [/QUOTE] Whatever you say, amigo. But who told _you_? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/84 "2007-01-09T04:50:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Whatever you say, amigo. But who told _you_? [/QUOTE] Another [fucking Mexican](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364836&page=5&pp=50&highlight=fucking+mexicans#284). ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/85 "2007-01-09T05:05:04Z")
I’m a liberal, but I have to say that it is _extremely_ poor form to accuse the other side of xenophobia or racism, as has been done by **niblet\_head** , **CBEscapee** , and **DMC** in this thread (sometimes implicitly). Although the OP could have been more carefully argued, **magellan01** does have a position worthy of being discussed reasonably. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/86 "2007-01-09T05:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] If you want to force immigrants to learn English, pass a law saying, “Applicants for citizenship must pass Text 174669/B.” I don’t see the need for a second law that says, “English it the official language of the United States.” Why not just pass the law about the test, and skip this national language nonsense altogether? [/QUOTE] There is [already a requirement to pass an exam in basic English](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=130696981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=11616c854523d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD) in order to naturalize (though there are also certain [exemptions](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=12e596981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD) from the English-language requirement for certain very long-term permanent residents, as well as for people with certain mental or physical impairments). And currently there is no requirement ever to become a citizen if one is residing legally in the U.S. as a permanent resident. In fact, off the top of my head I can’t think of any country in the world which _requires_ long-term legal residents to naturalize; usually the situation is quite the opposite. **magellan01,** I repeat the question others have asked you - have you ever learned another language in adulthood to any semi-functional degree of fluency/literacy? If so, did you think about how much harder it would have been if your education in your native language had been sparse at best, if only because you’d never had the opportunity to pursue a full education in your native country? Will probably have more commentary later, but I’ve been out immersing myself in Macedonian culture after spending the day helping the huddled masses in their efforts to breathe free, so I haven’t read the whole thread in detail. So far I haven’t seen anything that differentiates it from its umpteen predecessors, however. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/87 "2007-01-09T05:33:48Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] If you want to live here, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that you shold learn English. If I were to move to…Khazakstan, I’d expect to have to learn their language to funtion in their societies. [/QUOTE] [Kazakhstan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) is an odd choice for this particular argument, as until the collapse of the Soviet Union, close to half the population was Slavic and most of the population was Russian-speaking - the result of the past 150-odd years or so of Russian Imperial- and Soviet-sponsores colonialization by Russophones, not to mention systematic state-sponsored propagation of the Russian language for most official (and educational, and business) purposes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/88 "2007-01-09T05:38:11Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] **magellan01,** I repeat the question others have asked you - have you ever learned another language in adulthood to any semi-functional degree of fluency/literacy? If so, did you think about how much harder it would have been if your education in your native language had been sparse at best, if only because you’d never had the opportunity to pursue a full education in your native country? Will probably have more commentary later, but I’ve been out immersing myself in Macedonian culture after spending the day helping the huddled masses in their efforts to breathe free, so I haven’t read the whole thread in detail. So far I haven’t seen anything that differentiates it from its umpteen predecessors, however. [/QUOTE] **Eva Luna** , glad you’re here. Can you tell me or steer me where I can find info on what would have been the options for someone from Mexico to come here legally in the '60s? I’m trying to understand how the landscape has changed from then till now. You’re right, there’s not much new here other than the study cited in the OP (which **zut** was able to find the original before). I know you and I are on differetn sides of the issue, but I offered it as further support for my side of the argument. Actually, I’m thinking of taking up a language now. Either Italian, Spanish, or Latin, which I wish I had in school. I took Spanish in highschool and first year of college, so that would be the easiest of the three. Although it was many years ago. Let me ask you, do you think a fair degree of fluency in English is a sensible requirement for citizenship. Why or why not? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/89 "2007-01-09T05:41:31Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] [Kazakhstan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan) is an odd choice for this particular argument, as until the collapse of the Soviet Union, close to half the population was Slavic and most of the population was Russian-speaking - the result of the past 150-odd years or so of Russian Imperial- and Soviet-sponsores colonialization by Russophones, not to mention systematic state-sponsored propagation of the Russian language for most official (and educational, and business) purposes. [/QUOTE] Very interesting. I just included it to show range. And also, of course, to pay tribute to the great and glorious Borat. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/90 "2007-01-09T05:46:26Z")
[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy] I’m a liberal, but I have to say that it is _extremely_ poor form to accuse the other side of xenophobia or racism, as has been done by **niblet\_head** , **CBEscapee** , and **DMC** in this thread (sometimes implicitly). Although the OP could have been more carefully argued, **magellan01** does have a position worthy of being discussed reasonably. [/QUOTE] The problem is that information claiming that there is valid controversy against birthright citizenship is coming from crackpots that ignore case law, or racist sites. Mind you, it is true that there are lots of discussion in some circles, unfortunately in those circles the discussion is **settled** against birthright citizenship, but it remains a fact that birthright citizenship has been accepted as settled law since 1898, after the Supreme Court decision in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/91 "2007-01-09T05:51:13Z")
[QUOTE=Key Lime Guy] I’m a liberal, but I have to say that it is _extremely_ poor form to accuse the other side of xenophobia or racism, as has been done by **niblet\_head** , **CBEscapee** , and **DMC** in this thread (sometimes implicitly). Although the OP could have been more carefully argued, **magellan01** does have a position worthy of being discussed reasonably. [/QUOTE] Not familiar with **magellan01** , are you? I didn’t call him a racist in my previous post (although he is one). If you’re referring to my comment about the “brown” people, that’s what he calls them, which you can find in that nice little thread that **CBEscapee** linked to. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/92 "2007-01-09T05:57:59Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Not familiar with **magellan01** , are you? I didn’t call him a racist in my previous post (although he is one). If you’re referring to my comment about the “brown” people, that’s what he calls them, which you can find in that nice little thread that **CBEscapee** linked to. [/QUOTE] Ah, the old poison the well. Well, I shouldn’t be surprised. Yes, I used “brown” as shorthand for people coming from Mexico and points south. I wasn’t/am not aware that this is taboo. I’ve heard it on Sunday morning talk shows quite often. If it is offensive, please explain how? If it is, I’ll gladly find some other term or write around it. Sorry to disappoint you. Not very racist of me I know. But please do answer my question. Fighting ignorance and all that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/93 "2007-01-09T06:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] The problem is that information claiming that there is valid controversy against birthright citizenship is coming from crackpots that ignore case law, or racist sites. Mind you, it is true that there are lots of discussion in some circles, unfortunately in those circles the discussion is **settled** against birthright citizenship, but it remains a fact that birthright citizenship has been accepted as settled law since 1898, after the Supreme Court decision in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. [/QUOTE] The latter part is correct. The first part is NOT. Unless you consider all [these people](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-698) racist crackpots (click on “show sponsors”) for supporting [this](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-698). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/94 "2007-01-09T06:11:45Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] They don’t. See below.Notice what that says? [/QUOTE] Thanks. I’ve never heard the term judgmental sample before - I suppose because the journals I read don’t accept papers with clearly biased samples. If you pick the bad boys as your sample, it looks like everyone is bad. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/95 "2007-01-09T06:12:51Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] The latter part is correct. The first part is NOT. Unless you consider all [these people](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-698) racist crackpots (click on “show sponsors”) for supporting [this](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-698). [/QUOTE] Sorry, but in practical terms it is in crackpot territory, even that bill in a friendly congress was never voted or taken to a vote. > **[Birthright citizenship in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthright_citizenship_in_the_United_States_of_America)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > United States citizenship can be acquired by birthright in two situations: by virtue of the person's birth within United States territory while under the jurisdiction thereof (jus soli), or because at least one of their parents was a U.S. citizen at the time of the person's birth (jus sanguinis). Birthright citizenship contrasts with citizenship acquired in other ways, for example by naturalization. Birthright citizenship is explicitly guaranteed to any... > [@](#): > > H.R. 698 has not yet been voted upon by either house of Congress; the likelihood of its being passed by the current (109th) Congress is slim. Bills similar to H.R. 698 have been introduced in previous Congresses, **but none of them were ever acted upon either**. If such a law were ever enacted it would certainly be challenged in the courts as unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/96 "2007-01-09T06:15:34Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Ah, the old poison the well. Well, I shouldn’t be surprised. Yes, I used “brown” as shorthand for people coming from Mexico and points south. I wasn’t/am not aware that this is taboo. I’ve heard it on Sunday morning talk shows quite often. If it is offensive, please explain how? If it is, I’ll gladly find some other term or write around it. [/QUOTE] Okay, so you’re 31 flavors of stupid, too. Once again, **I didn’t call you a racist in my initial post in this thread** , nor had I mentioned that the term “brown people” was originally from you. Since that is the post that Key Lime Pie was responding to, I can only guess that he thinks I was calling you a racist based of that “brown” comment (i.e., putting such words into your mouth), since nothing else in my post could be construed as anything remotely similar, but he’ll let us know. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/97 "2007-01-09T06:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] racist crackpots [/QUOTE] Cute, I was giving you an out, but you insist in putting words in my mouth, it was not a single choice **magellan01**. A crackpot does not need to be a racist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/98 "2007-01-09T06:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Cute, I was giving you an out, but you insist in putting words in my mouth, it was not a single choice **magellan01**. A crackpot does not need to be a racist. [/QUOTE] I stand corrected. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/99 "2007-01-09T06:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] magellan01, we’ve been down and down and down this fucking road a million times, and you never learn a thing. You simply drag out the same dead horse every single time and claim it’s trotting. [/QUOTE] If **magellan01** were interested in the facts and arguments involved in the issue, he’d [read](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=401003) [one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399979) [of](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370619) [the](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=366587) (at least) _four_ illegal immigration threads he started in 2006. There’s nothing here that hasn’t been presented elsewhere (including the best recent [study](http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/articles/2006_NYT_OpenDoors.pdf) on the relationship between violent crime and Mexican immigrants – strongly negative, despite popular perception), and no more reason to believe any of it will have any effect on the OP. Nor are his arguments getting any smarter than the level he established when he was worried that Mexican immigrants were going to come to his home, give him dengue fever and impose Sharia law. So why does this dead horse keep showing up? And why so regularly, with a new one showing up whenever the dust settles on its predecessor? This is just a theory, but I think it’s advertising. **magpie** is creating a brand name for himself that he hopes will be identified with the One-English-Speaking-Nation-Under-God-With-A-Forty-Foot-Jesus-Fence-Around-It-America-Is-For-Us mindset. The strategy isn’t to persuade anybody: it’s to attract anyone within earshot (who may be too shy to participate in the discussion) who are also True Believers, and don’t need no stinkin’ facts or logic or fancy ethics to _know_ what they _know_. Later, they can get together and discuss their plans to save the world from…well, basically, the world. These threads are just the tactic of a latter-day [Know-Nothing](http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0827946.html) to portray himself as someone tough and charismatic enough for like-minded but more bashful nativists to follow. And the more you and others trounce him, the better it works. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/100 "2007-01-09T06:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] Okay, so you’re 31 flavors of stupid, too. Once again, **I didn’t call you a racist in my initial post in this thread** , nor had I mentioned that the term “brown people” was originally from you. Since that is the post that Key Lime Pie was responding to, I can only guess that he thinks I was calling you a racist based of that “brown” comment (i.e., putting such words into your mouth), since nothing else in my post could be construed as anything remotely similar, but he’ll let us know. [/QUOTE] Well, I was thinking we could post civilly. Okay, I’m stupid and you’re stupid-er. Okay? Now, I didn’t say you called me a racist in your _first_ post. I understand you wanting to correct **Key Lime Guy** as to your words, but you did that AND added: > [@](#): > > (although he is one) That is what I responded to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=6)