# Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208 "2007-01-08T21:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/101 "2007-01-09T06:48:36Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] One-English-Speaking-Nation-Under-God-With-A-Forty-Foot-Jesus-Fence-Around-It-America-Is-For-Us mindset. [/QUOTE] Forty? FOUR HUNDRED! And don’t fret brother. That Jesus, illuminated with xenon bulbs, will protect you, too. You will be saved if for no other reason that you mock salvation! Be patient, the day is near! In the meantime, may I ask you what is wrong with posting about an important issue facing us? Something appears in the news that sheds further light on the subject and I share it. What is wrong with that, other than the fact that you evidently don’t like the subject brought up. To which I would ask, why? Also, I don’t you recall you offering a similar post to some of the people who post repeatedly about WMDs, Bush lying, etc. Or did I miss it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/102 "2007-01-09T06:51:32Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] In the meantime, may I ask you what is wrong with posting about an important issue facing us? Something appears in the news that sheds further light on the subject and I share it. What is wrong with that, other than the fact that you evidently don’t like the subject brought up. To which I would ask, why? [/QUOTE] Oh, come on, now. You didn’t want to share it, you wanted to pick a fight over it. Else why did you post about it in the Pit, with the title “Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize”? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/103 "2007-01-09T06:53:57Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] That is what I responded to. [/QUOTE] Then what was all of the justification of your usage of the term “brown” for? Let’s recap, in order, shall we? 1. I demonstrated that your extrapolations in your OP were statistically invalid. Very. 2. I commented that the brown people weren’t the problem you’d like for them to be. They’re aren’t. 3. Key Lime Pie stated that I had accused you of racism in this thread. I hadn’t. 4. I responded that I had in no way referred to you as a racist in my prior post, but that you were one. 5. I took a guess at what he might have construed as being said accusation. No clue if I was accurate or not, as he hasn’t clarified yet. 6. You go off on some tangent about me taking offense with your use of the word “brown”, when I never implied that such offense had been taken on my part. As an aside, I don’t think that peeing in a well full of botulinum would be considered poisoning it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/104 "2007-01-09T07:09:30Z")
**DMC,** My post #92 was in response to your post #91, in which you mentioned racist (“although he is one”) and the “‘brown people’, that’s what he calls them”. I was simply replying to those two points. What is not clear about that. The post immediatley followed yours. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/105 "2007-01-09T07:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] As more immigrants come her (legally), it helps to have a culture that they can assimilate into. A culture that can be seen by newcomers as the norm. A stionary target they can then work themselves into. [/QUOTE] What culture would that be? And don’t say the American Culture because that’s a wide umbrella covering a lot of territory. Personally, I like having lots of cultures and languages. Recently, one of the juniors at my school brought egg rolls her mom had made to a school dance. It was a big hit. They even sold better than the rolled up rice krispie bars with the chocolate inside. Ya know, my geography textbook describes Canada as a mosaic as opposed to a melting pot and I have to admit that I much prefer that imagery. And on preview: Illegal immigration is not an important issue, it’s an inflammatory issue. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/106 "2007-01-09T07:15:36Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Oh, come on, now. You didn’t want to share it, you wanted to pick a fight over it. Else why did you post about it in the Pit, with the title “Good News For Illegal Immigration Apologists: more facts to ignore and rationalize”? [/QUOTE] Posting it is sharing it. Actually, I almost posted it in GD, but I like the title and didn’t think it GD appropriate. I don’t expect to convert any of the usual suspects, so I figured I’d just throw it out and see the contortions. Also, I didn’t plan on being around to contribute much until tomorrow, but some plans got cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/107 "2007-01-09T07:19:28Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Posting it is sharing it. Actually, I almost posted it in GD, but I like the title and didn’t think it GD appropriate. **I don’t expect to convert any of the usual suspects, so I figured I’d just throw it out and see the contortions**. Also, I didn’t plan on being around to contribute much until tomorrow, but some plans got cancelled. [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. So you admit trolling. At least you’re honest about it. Judging by the number of responses, you’re a talented troll. But still a fuckwit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/108 "2007-01-09T07:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=Inner Stickler] What culture would that be? And don’t say the American Culture because that’s a wide umbrella covering a lot of territory. [/QUOTE] Sorry, it is the American culture. And what pray tell, is so bad about that? Why is every other culture within the larger American culture so wonderful and precious, but our own is not worthy of preservation? Do you not find that odd? Now, true, the American culture does include lots of smaller sub cultures. But the mosaic/melting pot debate is largely a semantic one. We talk about a melting pot, but what we have is a mosaic. That’s the way it’s always been, even up to including the Ozzie and Harriet 1950s. [QUOTE=Inner Stickler] And on preview: Illegal immigration is not an important issue, it’s an inflammatory issue. [/QUOTE] The two concepts aren’t mutually exclusive. And 12,000,000 people sneaking into our country, costing us billions, putting strains on our hospitals and schools, driving down wages for our own less-skilled workers, unchecked for communicable diseases or criminal records is a BIG DEAL. I truly do not see how you can conclude otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/109 "2007-01-09T07:38:34Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] Bolding mine. So you admit trolling. At least you’re honest about it. Judging by the number of responses, you’re a talented troll. But still a fuckwit. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and you’re still dumb as wood. May I ask you a question? What is this infatuation you have with “trolls”? You’ve called me this before and posters who don’t even like me defended me to that accusation. So, what’s the infatuation? What is your definition of troll? If it jives with the one the board has, and you are right, I would have been banned by now, right? So why hasn’t that happened. Can it be that you are just exercising your pie hole and don’t know what the fuck you are talking about? Again? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/110 "2007-01-09T07:56:16Z")
Let’s just use this definition: _By trolling, we mean the posting of inflammatory comments for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people. If we feel your primary goal as a poster is to make people mad, you’ll quickly find yourself on the road to banning. Similarly, if we feel your primary reason for being here is to complain about the board and/or the moderators, you may be invited to go find another board that is more to your liking. On the flip side, the fact that a poster consistently makes you mad doesn’t automatically make them a troll._ Found here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365973](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=365973) You’ve admitted making inflammatory remarks to get a rise out of people. Hell, you bragged about it in the OP, with the popcorn bit, and you confirmed it in the part I quoted above. You like to piss people off. You like attention. You like beating dead horses. You’re a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/111 "2007-01-09T08:21:39Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Posting it is sharing it. Actually, I almost posted it in GD, but I like the title and didn’t think it GD appropriate. I don’t expect to convert any of the usual suspects, so I figured I’d just throw it out and see the contortions. Also, I didn’t plan on being around to contribute much until tomorrow, but some plans got cancelled. [/QUOTE] I’m just saying, if you start off your thread with a swipe at your perceived enemies, don’t act surprised when people react to the hostility in your OP instead of the content. I will say, in your defence, that **Oakminster** ’s posts are exactly why I thought lifting the rule against calling people trolls was a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/112 "2007-01-09T11:02:18Z")
Hell, **Oakminster** , I post things that make people angry, and I’m not a troll. An important consideration is whether a poster does it only to provide a cover for abusive behavior (or prompt it on the part of others), or if there’s some honestly-held, if repulsive and ignorant, conviction about a real issue. I think it’s probable that **magellan01** sincerely believes many of the things he says about illegal immigration (some, I’m not so sure about). The greatest pretense lies in his contention that he wants anything resembling a productive discussion of the matter, a pretense he seems to be in the process of dropping. As I said before, I think he uses these threads to hang out a shingle, just to assert that his is the name to trust for all your foreigner-fearing needs. That’s why they show up so regularly, and why he has so little regard for their content. The point isn’t to convince anybody, and in fact **magellan01** has no use for anyone susceptible to the facts and logic some posters manage to sneak into the conversation. The point is to attract the one or two lost souls encountering the thread who don’t _need_ convincing because they already hate all the right people and ideas, and who will recognize in him a kindred spirit, perhaps even (because of the courage with which he pseudonymously withstands the typed derision of others) someone to look up to. They may not post in the thread, but they might e-mail him or catch up with him elsewhere, and then he’s got another friend. Think of these threads as a kind of personals ad: “SDMB poster, male, nativist, seeks same for moonlit patrols along ill-defended border. Interest in sports a plus, interest in protecting the nation’s vital bodily fluids a must.” That kind of thing. As for the latest desultory attempt to saddle illegal immigrants with all the ills of the age, I’ll just go with this, from [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370619&page=2&pp=50)(Edited for length and clarity): [QUOTE=Me] …Let’s say, as the Center for Immigration Studies(1) (hardly an “open borders” crowd) does, that illegal immigrants impose a net cost of $10 billion/year at the federal level, and about twice that or a little more overall. That’s about where the rabidly anti-immigration City Journal(2) pegs it , also, so we’ll call the mostly non-partisan NRC(3) guess of $22 billion about right. This is approximately two-tenths of a percent of U.S. GDP(4) or, to put it in agricultural terms (many illegal immigrants become agricultural workers here), about what we give away in subsidies for corn alone(5). Or, bombastically, four percent of our military budget(6) , two years’ worth of Missile Defense research(7), or a fourteen week run for the Iraq war extravaganza(8). Or a third of a $70 billion tax cut. Money to pay for things we really care about is just everywhere. So the cost of illegal immigration is not high at all in terms of what we can actually afford, and you know what? We’re not even counting such ancillary benefits as the lower cost of goods and services, and the economic impact of immigrants’ own consumerism. Nor are we counting the benefits gained from the descendants of illegal immigrants who were either properly educated (or managed to learn anyway) and improved their lot, by inches at a time or by leaps and bounds, and are now paying the kind of taxes you expect your neighbors to pay, and wouldn’t be here if …. but let’s continue to ignore that for now. Let’s assume that illegal immigration will cost us $22 billion/year, fifty bucks per, just so we can look at the Statue of Liberty without thinking about how much we could get for it if we sold it for scrap. Maybe I’m too sentimental about the history and civics classes I took, but my God what a bargain, to be the country that takes those the rest of the world doesn’t want and through freedom and tolerance and sheer brass forges them into the greatest nation (yes, in spite of recent missteps) in the history of the planet, for an expenditure equaling two one-thousandths of our wealth. Here’s the problem: people lie about the problem. If the problem were really that school budgets were overextended, people would increase funding for the schools. If the problem were really that hospitals couldn’t provide care profitably, we’d fund universal health care. If the problem were really a lack of jobs, we’d actually compete for them (the thesis that there are a host of uneducated, non-English-speaking, disease-ridden people against whom we native-borns just cannot compete for jobs is not a fact, it’s an expression of self-loathing). But we go to the polls and vote against taxes to fund schools, we don’t support universal health care, we don’t apply for jobs picking grapes and mowing lawns, and we certainly don’t learn Spanish just because it might help us get a better job… I get the strong impression that our childrens’ education, or public health, or tax burdens, are being cited as problems only because the proffered solution is to “seal the borders” and “send every illegal home.” Easier solutions (it wouldn’t be cheaper and easier to find another 20 billion dollars than to scour the country for 12 million illegal immigrants and their children and secure and patrol a five-thousand mile border forever?) do not interest FAIR and company. Health and education and crime are not, for them, problems worth solving except insofar as the solution involves punishing and preventing and deporting people from the wrong side of the border. And there’s no conceivable solution otherwise. If I ask, “If you can’t blame illegal immigrants, what do you do?” the answer comes, “I blame illegal immigrants.” This makes it hard to believe that their concern is social services, as opposed to getting rid of certain people they don’t like… (1) [http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscaltranscript.html](http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscaltranscript.html) (2) [http://www.city-journal.org/html/12\_2\_do\_we\_want.html](http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_2_do_we_want.html) (3) [http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kouri/051007](http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kouri/051007) (4) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2001rank.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2001rank.html) (5) [Agricultural subsidy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy) (6) [Defense budget 101.](http://www.slate.com/id/2135553/) (7) [Defense budget 101.](http://www.slate.com/id/2135553/) (8) [http://www.usatoday.com/news/politi...war-clock\_x.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politi...war-clock_x.htm) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/113 "2007-01-09T15:07:42Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Sorry, **tdn** , I fugured most of those interested in this thread would have been people I’ve debated with on this topic before. [/QUOTE] Thanks for your polite response to my question which could have been interpreted as rude. That shows real class. For the record, I find your ideas to be xenophobic and repulsive, and your OP to be little more than trolling. And this from a person who is undecided on the illegals issue. But your response to me was classy, and for that I thank you. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spacedog/32/9932_2.png) [@SpaceDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceDog)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/114 "2007-01-09T15:54:48Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] … build one in Anarctica in case a child should be accidentally stranded there. [/quote] In the spirit of fighting ignorance … they have. [ > [@](#): > > The first person born in Antarctica was Emilio Marcos de Palma, on Jan. 7, 1978, at Esperanza Base in Hope Bay. The government of Argentina wanted to determine if the continent and its base were suitable for family life. Apparently the answer is “yes,” since the base is now home to about 70 Argentinean scientific personnel, including 10 families and 21 children who attend a school at the station. ]([http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/oldissues2002-2003/answer.html](http://antarcticsun.usap.gov/oldissues2002-2003/answer.html)) SD ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/115 "2007-01-09T16:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] But wouldn’t that problem be avoided if the laws effecting guest workers were enforced?I think Canada has a program where you can come in to work for 8 months or so. They way I see it working is like that. If you are found to be here illegally after your time is up you are deported and are barred from further guestwork for a period of years (3? 5?). So the only people who would be here permanently would be those here legally NOT through the Guest Worker Program. [/QUOTE] Well, obviously, you can make whatever laws you want. Canada’s not really a good example, though, because although Canada does have a temporary worker program, it also has citizenship based on birth in Canada. So, any children of those Canadian temporary workers born in Canada would be Canadian citizens. Now, the German law also provided for temporary residence, at first, but that was changed. The problem with setting up temporary worker programs, really, is, first, that for jobs other than seasonal work (like farming work), the business needs workers year round, and it’s better to have somebody who was working there continue to work there, rather than spending the time and expense to train a new person and get them familiar with the job. Second, the employee sets up a life in the new place, gets familiar with the new area, makes friends, and generally wants to stay. So making somebody go back after 8 months is hard on both the employer and employee. For reasons like that, Germany changed the law and set up a more permanent right of residence. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/116 "2007-01-09T18:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] As more immigrants come her (legally), it helps to have a culture that they can assimilate into. A culture that can be seen by newcomers as the norm. A stionary target they can then work themselves into. [/quote] I don’t see making English the official language as making any change to American culture, to be honest. > [@](#): > > Additionally, there is no reason that we should be spending money on voter information and DMV and other government materials. If you want to live here, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that you shold learn English. If I were to move to France, Germany, Mexico, Brazil, China, Thailand or Khazakstan, I’d expect to have to learn their language to funtion in their societies. If I needed help, I would look to aemrican enclaves, the American Consulate or private organizations. Ah. This is a seperate matter entirely. I think you should add “only provide official documentation and citizenship details in English” to your list; just “make it the official language” suggests that’s the only difference you want. That said, you seem to have an odd idea of functioning in society. Surely both illegal and legal immigrants do function in society? They work. They buy products. In the case of the latter, they pay tax. That’s what I’d consider to be functioning in society. It seems as though your definition is something along the lines of “Can I talk to them?”, which is a poor though not totally invalid use. How is it that immigrants are unable to function in society? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/117 "2007-01-09T18:24:45Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] There is [already a requirement to pass an exam in basic English](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=130696981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=11616c854523d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD) in order to naturalize (though there are also certain [exemptions](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=12e596981298d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=96719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD) from the English-language requirement for certain very long-term permanent residents, as well as for people with certain mental or physical impairments). And currently there is no requirement ever to become a citizen if one is residing legally in the U.S. as a permanent resident. In fact, off the top of my head I can’t think of any country in the world which _requires_ long-term legal residents to naturalize; usually the situation is quite the opposite. … [/QUOTE] Thanks for posting this. Has our OP acknowledged that the great majority of the naturalized have proven their knowledge of English? In Harris County (Houston) our ballots often include Amendments to the Texas Constitution & City or County Bond issues. They are not written in “English”–but some English-like dialect designed to confuse even native speakers. So our ballots are printed in English, Spanish & Vietnamese. As you pointed out, many legal non-citizens need to use government forms. It’s useful to print them in the needed languages. Most of the multi-lingualism that disturbs the xenophobes comes from private businesses. People have a right to do business in the languages that their customers prefer. Some of the customers need to send money home on payday. Others came from Mexico City to patronize the high-end shops at the Galleria. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/118 "2007-01-09T18:54:14Z")
I don’t have a dog in this fight (or more accurately, I don’t have the stamina to withstand an argument), but what is so wrong with leaning on Mexico in some way(s) to get it to clean up its act? All I ever hear is “oh, it’s so corrupt”–ok. What can we do (if anything-there has to be something) to make it a better place for Mexicans?–whom I think should stay in Mexico and visit/ trade with “us”. If regarding Mexico as a parasite nation makes me xenophobic conservative, I’ll deal with the surreality of that. It’s easy to characterize the position that way, but it’s not accurate. Certainly there is racism present in some of the dealings with illegals (and legals, come to that), but it is NOT the sole or even the primary reason for people to look askance at illegal immigration and its impact on our economy and society. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/119 "2007-01-09T19:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] I don’t have a dog in this fight (or more accurately, I don’t have the stamina to withstand an argument), but what is so wrong with leaning on Mexico in some way(s) to get it to clean up its act? All I ever hear is “oh, it’s so corrupt”–ok. What can we do (if anything-there has to be something) to make it a better place for Mexicans?–whom I think should stay in Mexico and visit/ trade with “us”. If regarding Mexico as a parasite nation makes me xenophobic conservative, I’ll deal with the surreality of that. It’s easy to characterize the position that way, but it’s not accurate. Certainly there is racism present in some of the dealings with illegals (and legals, come to that), but it is NOT the sole or even the primary reason for people to look askance at illegal immigration and its impact on our economy and society. [/QUOTE] I suggest you try to learn more about México. If all you hear is “oh, it’s so corrupt” then you know very little about the country. Corruption is a problem, but I really don’t think it is a defining one. Although it is apparently one that is used often and vigorously by Mexico critics/bashers in your country and very much so by the racists amongst them. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208/120 "2007-01-09T20:05:47Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] I suggest you try to learn more about México. If all you hear is “oh, it’s so corrupt” then you know very little about the country. Corruption is a problem, but I really don’t think it is a defining one. Although it is apparently one that is used often and vigorously by Mexico critics/bashers in your country and very much so by the racists amongst them. [/QUOTE] Oh? When clean water is not available to all citizens? There are shanty towns outside of major cities where plumbing does not exist? Nope-no cite, but I have read that in mainstream media (I really don’t spend my time with much else, barring BBC, and that is mainstream as well). Please, show me where Mexico is helping the urban underclass, the uneducated, the rural population. I’m not being snarky-if there are solid programs out there to help women get educated, to slow the birth rate, to address basic hygiene and public health issues, I’d (and others here) would like to know. Are you seriously saying that law enforcement and social support WORK in Mexico? That schools actually teach things? NPR did a series on immigration and schools. There was a boy who went to kindergarten here in a Chicago suburb, but mom took the family back to Mexico (she was illegal, IMS). He has not progressed in school-not because of a lack of innate ability, but due to a lack of initiative on the part of the schools. The mom was very critical of the Mexican school system. Is she wrong? I am asking. I don’t say these things to criticize a country baselessly-these are major concerns. Why should America clean up Mexico’s mess? Clean up your damned mess. You want us to welcome immigrants from Mexico? You(Mexico) educate them, house them, feed them-help them be the best peoples they can be. Why is that xenophobic? How is that racist? Canada doesn’t expect us to take in their poor. A facile remark, but seriously-why do we have to help Mexico at all? More thoughts spurred by this thread: If I wanted to live in France-I would work hard to learn French, and speak it-badly to be sure, but the effort would be there. Sure, it would be humiliating (just vacationing over there showed me how ignorant of the language I am-I took German), but I struggled. I deal with illegals/ immigrants almost daily. Most speak no English. Some get mad that I don’t speak Spanish. I think that’s a bit much, frankly. I can see getting frustrated that communication breaks down, but angry at me that I don’t speak their language? They’re not supposed to be here and they’re demanding special treatment? WTH? I don’t have any answers. But IMO: America is (supposedly) the land of opportunity for those who come here legally. I have no problem with immigration-I have a problem with people collasping on us, straining our resources and then resenting the dominant culture here. Only in America is it possible to made to feel bad for wanting some rules to immigration, to put limits on influx and outflow. It boggles my mind. Quotas seem to be perhaps subtley racist, so I am not sure what the answer is. The current approach isnt’ working. I am tired of the whole “the immigrant is an innocent, searching for Freedom” stereotype. Immigrants are many things, some good, some bad-they’re just people. Some (probably most) want a better life, but some want better opportunities for crime as well. That’s human nature. Whether those stats in the OP are valid or accurate or not, I am glad there is some attempt to tabulate this kind of stuff. We haven’t even begun the issue of the drop-out rates of Hispanic kids (especially girls)–which society pays for over and over again and keeps them in a lower class; a self-perpetuating process… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-news-for-illegal-immigration-apologists-more-facts-to-ignore-and-rationalize/387208.md?page=7)