# good pay for unskilled labor, why the hate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2008, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374 "2008-12-16T08:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/141 "2008-12-17T03:32:28Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > Last time I checked working full time the individual would have access to relatively cheap insurance as well, even at a place like McDonalds. Im not saying that this would be an easy way to survive. But that a single individual could survive atleast where I am at in this nation. He would have a roof over his head and enough food on his plate. The biggest thing is though that if someone is a hard worker they will not be making minimum wage for long. They will soon be making a lot more than minimum wage. showing up on time repeatedly will get you a raise within your first six months at alot of these places. Most businesses are keeping all minimum workers just under the hours needed to require healthcare coverage. That aisde, those plans are not at all economical. A few places I’ve worked at even offered it at a higher cost than my private policy, which is currently 165.00 a month and subject to increases twice yearly regardless of claims. I have keep it in case of a catastrophic injury, but have never met a deductible, nor even come close to it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/142 "2008-12-17T03:38:46Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > That’s a theory. And one that does not apply to small businesses, which generally do not have stockholders…other than “Mom & Pop” who own the business and aren’t likely to want to lower their own standard of living. A theory? Only if simple math is just a theory. It is a zero sum game, no matter who owns the business. Increasing worker’s wages decreases owner profit (be they stockholders, privately held or Mom & Pop). Workers spend more, owners spend less; no inflation. Now, if they would just not rather lower their standard of living so their workers can make a living wage, that is a different debate altogether. But your inflation argument just doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/143 "2008-12-17T03:45:28Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > but unregulated capitalism has gotten us into the mess that we are discussing, so it certainly is no unsullied ideal. Unless you’re living in 1970s Hong Kong, this is baloney. The United States has TONS of regulations on its capitalism. Whether they or good regulations or not, or the right ones, or enough, is another issue. But we do NOT live in anything like a completely free market, and have not for generations. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/144 "2008-12-17T03:50:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Unless you’re living in 1970s Hong Kong, this is baloney. The United States has TONS of regulations on its capitalism. Whether they or good regulations or not, or the right ones, or enough, is another issue. But we do NOT live in anything like a completely free market, and have not for generations. Oh get off it. No one said it was a free market. It is obvious though, that what regulation we do have is either unenforced, or so full of loopholes that it is unenforceable providing that the big companies don’t just buy off whoever they need to. Pretty much anything but the most blatant transgressions get a big “meh” from law enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/145 "2008-12-17T03:53:02Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Most businesses are keeping all minimum workers just under the hours needed to require healthcare coverage. That aisde, those plans are not at all economical. A few places I’ve worked at even offered it at a higher cost than my private policy, which is currently 165.00 a month and subject to increases twice yearly regardless of claims. I have keep it in case of a catastrophic injury, but have never met a deductible, nor even come close to it. I was unaware that they kept people beneath the minimum, I worked at Mcdonalds full time from the ages of 16-21 (some of that was only during summer and christmas break but a solid two years full time before I went to college) and I was working 40-45 hours (yeah I got overtime cause I actually worked), so either they knew I was on my parents insurance and would never apply or they though it was worth it to give me insurance if I needed it. (I also got a fifty cent raise with in my first year). My point is i see no reason for a living wage, I see no real positive effect. I do realize that people come under rough times and some would have much difficulty living on current minimum wage standards, and I strongly believe that as a human i am morally obligated to help these people. On the other hand i am strongly against the use of force or threat of force in helping these people. I actually think that if we increased minimum wage it would cause less entry level jobs, people would find a way to not have to hire them thus being a net negative rather than a positive. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/146 "2008-12-17T03:54:13Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Oh get off it. No one said it was a free market. It is obvious though, that what regulation we do have is either unenforced, or so full of loopholes that it is unenforceable providing that the big companies don’t just buy off whoever they need to. Pretty much anything but the most blatant transgressions get a big “meh” from law enforcement. I strongly disagree with this statement. our biggest problem is laws concerning unions more than any other thing. The biggest problem is poor regulation and too much regulation rather than no regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/147 "2008-12-17T04:04:03Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > A theory? Only if simple math is just a theory. It is a zero sum game, no matter who owns the business. Increasing worker’s wages decreases owner profit (be they stockholders, privately held or Mom & Pop). Workers spend more, owners spend less; no inflation. > > Now, if they would just not rather lower their standard of living so their workers can make a living wage, that is a different debate altogether. But your inflation argument just doesn’t hold water. Things do not have to work the way your theory says they should. There is no requirement that a company accept lower profits due to paying higher wages. They can, and many will, raise prices to consumers. If the stockholders are displeased with lower profit, they can vote out the board of directors, and vote in people more likley to increase profit…either by reducing costs or raising prices. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/148 "2008-12-17T04:23:40Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Things do not have to work the way your theory says they should. There is no requirement that a company accept lower profits due to paying higher wages. They can, and many will, raise prices to consumers. If the stockholders are displeased with lower profit, they can vote out the board of directors, and vote in people more likley to increase profit…either by reducing costs or raising prices. Companies cannot make up profits paid as higher wages by simply raising prices. In a free market, raising prices in the absence of increased demand will result in fewer sales as consumers seek out competitive prices. The only way to compete is to accept lower profits. Stop digging, **Oak**. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/149 "2008-12-17T04:39:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Companies cannot make up profits paid as higher wages by simply raising prices. In a free market, raising prices in the absence of increased demand will result in fewer sales as consumers seek out competitive prices. The only way to compete is to accept lower profits. Stop digging, **Oak**. Until it actually happens, it’s a theory. Once it’s happened, it’s history. The point under discussion was a living wage for all minimum wage workers. My theory is that will cause prices to rise on everything. I see no reason demand would increase or decrease in this hypothetical. Supply remains the same, Demand remains the same, cost of production goes up, prices go up. MickeyD’s is still competitive with Burger King, because they both have the same labor cost increase. Oak’s Burger Joint may go bankrupt, because my margins are slimmer than the big players. Oak’s former employees are double screwed, because now they’re unemployed and things cost more. Oak’s former employers vote against President **Acid Lamp** next election. Oak now becomes President. (Cue Ewok Celebration). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/150 "2008-12-17T05:30:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’d rather see workers acquire the skills to be able to compete for higher paying jobs. If you plan on spending a career driving a mop, you ain’t gonna be able to support a family. In your world all people have the ability to do sophisticated jobs. They have the intelligence to do college and obtain skills that will make them fiscally fine. Who waits tables in your world. Who cleans places up . Who takes care of the sick. Some don’t plan on mopping floors,they just have an IQ of 80. I suppose they should commit suicide. They sure can not expect to live and raise a family. They do not deserve that. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/151 "2008-12-17T05:38:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Short term advantage: company B. Invest here if you want a quick buck turnaround with a time frame of 6 months. This company is getting profits for the present at the expense of the future. > > Long term advantage: Company A. They will attract the best workers from the industry, leaving company B with the incompetent dregs who turn out an inferior product. Invest with A if your timeframe is buy and hold for several years. Or, alternatively phrased as a question: why does anyone pay above minimum wage or give out benefits? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/152 "2008-12-17T06:13:12Z")
Ever watch Dirty Jobs on TV. There are a lot of dirty nasty jobs that deserve good pay. They do not require intelligence or a degree. Most of you would starve before you would do some of those jobs. You would argue that they should get paid minimum wage . ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/153 "2008-12-17T06:41:01Z")
> [@Omegaman](#): > > Could you expand on this? He might deserve more having more resposibility, tasks assigned to him, etc. But better than who? A worker? Good bosses are only as good as their crew. Probably came out of the time when the boss was the owner, someone who started a biz from the ground up and has his fortune at stake , as opposed to some one off the street who goes home for the weekend and thinks nothing more of the place until monday. While those places probably still exist, todays boss has more likely parachuted in, and has a background in some manufacturing , personel management , accounting and workplace related legal understanding. Declan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/154 "2008-12-17T14:52:36Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’d rather see workers acquire the skills to be able to compete for higher paying jobs. If you plan on spending a career driving a mop, you ain’t gonna be able to support a family. The quote wasn’t about supporting a family. It was about someone being able to support themselves. And I fucking grew up in poverty because my mom is slow and couldn’t acquire those skills so had to stick to unskilled labor. Did I deserve that childhood? Tell me. Did I deserve having to learning to deal with missing out on all that special stuff familis do with their kids cause my mom couldn’t afford it? Did I deserve going to bed hungry because sometimes we couldn’t afford food? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/155 "2008-12-17T15:31:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If the guy that mops the floor gets more money, then I want more, too. That’s the American way. cite? I was under the impression the American way was we’re all equal and we get ahead by hardwork whether at school or at the foundry. Not school people are better then those street urchin working class people who don’t even deserve to feed their kids. I’d be willing to reconsider if you have a cite. > [@](#): > > You gonna answer my question about how you gonna regulate without price controls? Hmm just a thought, but couldn’t you let the free market decide if higher pay grades are worth their requested price? Setting the bare minimum doesn’t define the maximum. Just because you could hypothetically support a family with the basics working an unskilled job doesn’t mean you wouldn’t want to strive for more. Most people have ambitions beyond 50 cent mac and cheese dinners and $6 clothes from family dollar. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/156 "2008-12-17T16:23:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > (Cue Ewok Celebration). > 😃 A fitting end to your largely fairy tale understanding of economics. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/157 "2008-12-17T16:25:13Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > The quote wasn’t about supporting a family. It was about someone being able to support themselves. And I fucking grew up in poverty because my mom is slow and couldn’t acquire those skills so had to stick to unskilled labor. > > Did I deserve that childhood? Tell me. Did I deserve having to learning to deal with missing out on all that special stuff familis do with their kids cause my mom couldn’t afford it? Did I deserve going to bed hungry because sometimes we couldn’t afford food? It is pretty clear . Some people think you have no reason to breed. Those who make less should not have children. They should have no expectations. We will have to pass laws to keep people who make less than 40 K from having kids. It is time for debtors prison to come back. Some of the old ideas are the best. Can’t pay your bills, straight into jail with you. Lose your job, lose your children. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/158 "2008-12-17T16:54:16Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Oh get off it. No one said it was a free market. My bad; you said “unregulated capitalism.” Would you like to explain the big difference between “unregulated capilatism” and “free market?” > [@](#): > > It is obvious though, that what regulation we do have is either unenforced, or so full of loopholes that it is unenforceable providing that the big companies don’t just buy off whoever they need to. Pretty much anything but the most blatant transgressions get a big “meh” from law enforcement. You see many 12 year olds with jobs? Lots of employers letting people work over 40 hours without overtime? Most businesses ignoring required licensing? Ignoring EEOC rules? Ignoring zoning laws and health codes? Ignoring product-safety rules? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/159 "2008-12-17T17:21:55Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > And we’re talking about unskilled labor in this thread, so what’s your point? > > The labor cost in the supply chain would be included in the commodity cost. MickeyD’s pays $X/pound of hamburger meat. They pay $Y for staff in the restaurant. A Quarter Pounder costs 1/4X + %Y + Z(incidentals & profit) > > And now I want a cite for the proposition that 5% of an Intel microprocessor is labor cost. Just an example. What percentage of the stuff you buy is labor intensive? As for Intel, I was part of the labor cost. Check out the cost of a fab these days. In the design process, most of the cost is (high priced) labor. There is a bunch of computing cost, and the facilities, but it’s mostly labor. Once you go into production it is highly automated. There is some labor of course, and engineering costs for yield improvement and debug, but new fabs cost a billion bucks, and labor is nowhere near that high. New processor pipelines cost a bunch, but most of the processors you buy are derivatives - that is slight speed bumps from finding slow paths or moving to a new process. The labor cost for those is very small. In 1996 they were still selling some Pentiums, but there were about 4 people in Santa Clara working on them. The very last one moved into my group. I have no idea of the economics of a hamburger place, but say there are 5 people at $10 / hour for 16 hours. That’s $800 a day, or about 80 average transactions. Is one a minute at high times reasonable? Labor would be 25% of total costs max, and I’m sure it is much lower in the supply chain, where mass quantities of products are moved. So you have to move down the supply chain to do this measurement. McDonalds no doubt has higher labor costs than most. The TV Department of Best Buys has lower costs. In any case, an increase of x% in pay is going to result in an increase of \<\< x% in product cost, so the laborer wins. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374/160 "2008-12-17T17:48:18Z")
Labor costs in fast food goes from about 25 to 30 percent of gross. At least it did about 30 years ago when I was involved. I am sure McDucks is a little lower. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pay-for-unskilled-labor-why-the-hate/477374.md?page=9)