# Good Pope/Bad Pope **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332 "2005-04-02T00:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/101 "2005-04-04T21:21:50Z")
He - or his henchmen- said condoms gave you AIDS. [which helped a lot of people in Africa] :rolleyes: He - " " - said homosexuality is okay, but don’t marry and don’t ‘act upon it’ :rolleyes: He- " " - was against abortion :rolleyes: I truly hope the new pope will be less medieval. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/102 "2005-04-04T23:31:23Z")
_You_ may want the next Pope to be less medieval, but chances are that he won’t be. The Holy Father elevated to the College of Cardinals mostly men who agreed with his stances. Furthermore, there are a good number of Catholics who don’t want the Pope to change anything. The Church is still trying to process Vatican II. Change is not something the Church should be very interested in: as a matter of fact, some believe it is the Church’s obligation to be literally conservative, that is, to conserve the deposit of the faith. (Which is why there are a few schismatic groups around who believe in sedevacantism, whereby the Papacy since Vatican II has been empty because convening Vatican II was going against the Deposit of the Faith.) While we operate with mindsets formed by our modern world, the leaders of the Catholic Church operate with a mindset formed over thousands of years. For people to expect things to change, just like that, is preposterous and fails to take into account the perspective from which the leadership comes. Furthermore, the values that we have in the West are not values shared around the world. The Church is a universal Church, not a Western Church. WRS ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/103 "2005-04-04T23:45:49Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > _You_ may want the next Pope to be less medieval, but chances are that he won’t be. As long as he doesn’t actually get medieval on my _ass_. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/104 "2005-04-05T02:58:34Z")
**gum** , you have an interesting definition of medieval. I dare say that the kind of things you’d like the next Pope to change about his religion weren’t even on the liberal-rights radar as recently as half a century ago. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/105 "2005-04-05T12:00:36Z")
That just shows how behind the times things were 50 years ago. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/106 "2005-04-05T12:00:48Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > While we operate with mindsets formed by our modern world, the leaders of the Catholic Church operate with a mindset formed over thousands of years. For people to expect things to change, just like that, is preposterous and fails to take into account the perspective from which the leadership comes. Furthermore, the values that we have in the West are not values shared around the world. The Church is a universal Church, not a Western Church. > > WRS The Pope and the Church were responsible for millions of AIDS-related deaths in Africa thanks to their mind-numbingly stupid opposition to condoms. Fuck the fucking Deposit of Faith, if they keep that shit up, they’re all going straight to hell. And fuck the Catholic Church, too. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/107 "2005-04-05T12:50:42Z")
It’s all well and good standing up for your beliefs etc. but dishing out false ‘scientific’ statements about the effectiveness of condoms is quite another. Add to that the protection of child rapists and the tolerance to situations like the, for all intents and purposes, slave labour camps set up in Ireland and you’ve got a religion that needs to really think about what it stands for and how it’s going about it. ---
**Author:** ![Scarface\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Scarface\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarface_Z)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/108 "2005-04-05T16:09:56Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > 1. He believes that the problems with sexual abuse among the clergy come from that very attitude of the seminarians. (Not, he was very clear, from anything having to do with homosexuality.) Really? Could you ask him then why they had sex with young boys instead of female parishoners or altar girls? Seriously, I’ve been wondering about that. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/109 "2005-04-05T16:25:42Z")
I am pretty sure I recall that it happend that they preyed upon girls too, it’s just that there were more cases of boys, or maybe it’s how people kidnap white kids and black kids, but you hardly ever hear about the black kids on tv. ---
**Author:** ![BigBoss3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@BigBoss3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBoss3)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/110 "2005-04-05T20:31:46Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The Pope and the Church were responsible for millions of AIDS-related deaths in Africa… Are you sure? As far as I can tell all the African countries with the highest AIDS prevaliancy are all Protestant, except Ethiopia which is mainly Coptic I think. The countries with a RC majority have all got smaller AIDS problems. Africa is not a Catholic continent, so I am really not sure that RC views are a significant cause of the AIDS situation. ---
**Author:** ![BigBoss3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@BigBoss3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBoss3)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/111 "2005-04-05T22:07:58Z")
Justification for previous post… [AIDS prevailence](http://www.phrasebase.com/countries/index.php?variable=people_aidsrate&submit=Last+40&action=rankorder&cat=0&counter=40&track=218) [African Catholic percentages](http://www.cmu.org.uk/religions/12catholics/cat_pg04.htm) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/112 "2005-04-06T03:17:32Z")
> [@Scarface Z](#): > > Really? Could you ask him then why they had sex with young boys instead of female parishoners or altar girls? Seriously, I’ve been wondering about that. [Here](http://www.snapnetwork.org/priest_stories/the_gay_purge.htm) is a link to an article talking about the gender of victims. The gist of the article is that far more females than males are abused, but the males get much more publicity. The church has not seen fit to release statistics on victims, so there isn’t any hard data publicly available, but this article quotes therapists who work with victims of clergy abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/113 "2005-04-06T12:07:32Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > As long as he doesn’t actually get medieval on my _ass_. Cool! You have a donkey? Your stock just went up ten points in my estimation. They’re _so_ cute. (And what’s the Darwinist explanation for the cross on their back, anyway?) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/114 "2005-04-06T12:23:46Z")
I really don’t know the absolute numbers, but the fact is that senior members of the Catholic Church are saying that condoms don’t help prevent AIDS and in fact may contribute to its spread. Even if you’re not Catholic, this has GOT to be confusing, seeing that it’s an outright lie. [http://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php](http://www.cathnews.com/news/310/53.php) At the bottom of the article is a listing of other articles that cite this disastrous misinformation. I don’t have the exact numbers, but whatever they are, the Catholic Church is being fucking evil here. ---
**Author:** ![Scarface\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Scarface\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarface_Z)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/115 "2005-04-06T16:55:41Z")
> [@The Punkyova](#): > > [Here](http://www.snapnetwork.org/priest_stories/the_gay_purge.htm) is a link to an article talking about the gender of victims. The gist of the article is that far more females than males are abused, but the males get much more publicity. The church has not seen fit to release statistics on victims, so there isn’t any hard data publicly available, but this article quotes therapists who work with victims of clergy abuse. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/116 "2005-04-07T18:43:05Z")
> [@BigBoss3](#): > > Are you sure? As far as I can tell all the African countries with the highest AIDS prevaliancy are all Protestant, except Ethiopia which is mainly Coptic I think. The countries with a RC majority have all got smaller AIDS problems. Africa is not a Catholic continent, so I am really not sure that RC views are a significant cause of the AIDS situation. The Catholic Church and other religious “groups” basically emptied the Cairo UN meeting on population and family control, they have actively lobbied against government efforts of 1st world countries that give out sex-ed, condoms and family planning help. ``` Its not an issue of Africa being Catholic... but the Vatican and catholic movements actively blocking efforts at AIDS containment and education. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/117 "2005-04-07T20:05:31Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Admittedly the Biblical argument against birth control is weak. Yeah, it does say to be fruitful and multiply. However, the population at that point was just 2 people, so I don’t know that it still applies. I think we can hang up a “MISSION ACCOMPLISHED” banner on that one. I understand that the President has one he isn’t using anymore. ---
**Author:** ![BigBoss3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@BigBoss3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBoss3)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/118 "2005-04-07T20:32:47Z")
For the record, here is the data that led me to question how much of the blame for the spread of AIDS should be aimed at the RCC. Central\_&_Southern\_Africa\_\_\_\_\_\_\_South\_America_\_ Country\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_AIDS%\_Catholic\_\_\_Country\_\_\_\_\_AIDS%\_\_\_Catholic BOTSWANA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_35.8\_\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_GUYANA\_\_\_\_\_\_3.01\_\_\_\_\_\_No SWAZILAND\_\_\_\_\_\_35.6\_\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_SURINAME\_\_\_\_1.26\_\_\_\_\_\_No ZIMBABWE\_\_\_\_\_\_\_25.06\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ARGENTINA\_\_\_0.69\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes LESOTHO\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_23.57\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_BRAZIL\_\_\_\_\_\_0.57\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes ZAMBIA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_19.95\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_VENEZUELA\_\_\_0.49\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes SOUTH\_AFRICA\_\_\_19.94\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_PERU\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_0.35\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes NAMIBIA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_19.54\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_URUGUAY\_\_\_\_\_0.33\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes MALAWI\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_15.96\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_COLOMBIA\_\_\_\_0.31\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes MOZAMBIQUE\_\_\_\_\_14.5\_\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ECUADOR\_\_\_\_\_0.3\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes C.A.R.\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_13.84\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_CHILE\_\_\_\_\_\_\_0.19\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes KENYA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_13.5\_\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_PARAGUAY\_\_\_\_0.11\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes DJIBOUTI\_\_\_\_\_\_\_11.75\_\_\_No\_\_\_\_\_\_\_BOLIVIA\_\_\_\_\_0.1\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes BURUNDI\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_11.32\_\_\_Yes\_\_\_\_\_\_FRA.\_GUYANA\_0\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes RWANDA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_11.21\_\_\_No ETHIOPIA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_10.63\_\_\_No GABON\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_9\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes TANZANIA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_8.09\_\_\_\_No CAMEROON\_\_\_\_\_\_\_7.73\_\_\_\_No CONGO\_REPUBLIC\_6.43\_\_\_\_Yes UGANDA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_6.1\_\_\_\_\_No CONGO\_DR\_\_\_\_\_\_\_5.07\_\_\_\_Yes ANGOLA\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_2.78\_\_\_\_Yes EQ.L\_GUINEA\_\_\_\_0.51\_\_\_\_Yes SAO\_TOME\_PRINC\_0\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Yes ‘Catholic’ in the table means at least 50% of the population is RC. Wouldn’t it make sense taht the RCC would be more succsesful at lobbying Catholic (instead of non-Catholic) nations to not provide condoms and education? It seems to me that Catholic and Islamic moralism that frowns upon extra-marital sex has been more succesful than an enlightened, liberal attitude at slowing AIDS, so far. Rashak, you live in a catholic country with a relatively low AIDS rate- have Catholics been succesful in stopping condoms/Sex-ed over there? ANd also, how do you code a ‘tab’? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/119 "2005-04-07T20:44:26Z")
Originally posted by \*\* BigBoss3\*\* > [@](#): > > \\* Islamic moralism that frowns upon extra-marital sex \*\ ? You mean: Beside the fact that the Islamic faith allows multiple wives? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332/120 "2005-04-07T20:47:08Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Originally posted by \*\* BigBoss3\*\* ? > > You mean: Beside the fact that the Islamic faith allows multiple wives? If he’s married to all of them it’s not extramarital, is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-pope-bad-pope/297332.md?page=7)