# Good works and commandments. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437 "2010-10-08T00:58:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/21 "2010-10-08T17:36:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I was raised a Catholic so we didn’t delve into the mysteries of Protestant doctrine. > > > > But I’m in the middle of a book of the Reformation and it’s got me wondering. One of the central tenets of Protestantism is that a person cannot be saved by good works. Salvation is by faith only and nothing else you do in your life will have any effect on salvation. > > > > If that’s the case, then why did God issue all those Commandments? There’s apparently only one real rule - Believe in God - and nothing else matters. So why tell people to respect their parents and not bear false witness and not commit murder and not eat pork? Aren’t all these Biblical rules on things we’re supposed to do show that works do matter to God? > > If you truly love God you will obey what God tells you to do out of love for Him and since the commandments are good out of love of other people. So you hate God when you watch football on Friday night and Saturday? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/22 "2010-10-08T17:41:14Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/23 "2010-10-08T17:56:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > An interesting take. > > But the Commandments are clearly written to be obeyed. If God put them in the Bible as a form of deception, then how can we judge whether any part of the Bible is true? Maybe following the Commandments is the real means of salvation and it’s the scripture that says we can be saved by faith alone that’s the lie. Good point. Before Christianity “God” supposedly revealed the Law and then repeatedly called it was good. In the New Testament supposedly the same “God” now reveals that the Law was bad and only brings death. At least, that’s what’s said when the “revelation” comes through Paul. The New Testament and the original Bible are like an oil-and-water mixture. _ **- Jack** _ ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/24 "2010-10-08T18:00:27Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > In the New Testament supposedly the same “God” now reveals that the Law was bad… Cite? Paul’s point was that God’s Law is good but our disobedience of it brings death upon us. If God had not given us His Law & laid on the penalty of death for disobedience, then we would not know death- at least not in the sense we do now. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/25 "2010-10-08T18:40:38Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > > [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > > > In the New Testament supposedly the same “God” now reveals that the Law was bad… > > Cite? Paul’s point was that God’s Law is good but our disobedience of it brings death upon us. If God had not given us His Law & laid on the penalty of death for disobedience, then we would not know death- at least not in the sense we do now. Sounds like a great guy. Hey, your gggggggggg-grandmother ate an apple when I explicitly told her not to, so now you face eternal damnation unless you admit that I’m a great guy. At least he didn’t put a horse’s head in our bed. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/26 "2010-10-08T19:33:32Z")
A bit that hasn’t been mentioned yet. Martin Luther’s 95 Theses was a reaction to problems that he saw in the Catholic church, including the selling of indulgences. Luther saw the church’s actions as a distortion of the true relationship between God and man. From [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_luther): > [@](#): > > Against the teaching of his day that the righteous acts of believers are performed in cooperation with God, Luther wrote that Christians receive such righteousness entirely from outside themselves; that righteousness not only comes from Christ but actually is the righteousness of Christ, imputed to Christians (rather than infused into them) through faith.[38] “That is why faith alone makes someone just and fulfills the law,” he wrote. As for the 10 Commandments? I was taught that they are there as rules, for when someone’s faith isn’t strong enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/27 "2010-10-08T20:29:09Z")
Of course Calvinistic predestination would say that which place you are bound for was determined before you were born and if you’re destined for downstairs then all the works and faith in the world won’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/28 "2010-10-08T20:39:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > The Two Commandments, both of which are in Torah, are just considered a summary of the Ten & the other moral commands of Torah. [George Carlin summarized them pretty well in just the Two Commandments (plus one more that he added)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/29 "2010-10-09T00:44:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > > > If you truly love God you will obey what God tells you to do out of love for Him and since the commandments are good out of love of other people. > > The commandments are not all good. Specificis? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/30 "2010-10-09T02:27:46Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > As for the 10 Commandments? > I was taught that they are there as rules, for when someone’s faith isn’t strong enough. The problem with that idea is that it runs counter to the faith alone doctrine. You can obey all the Commandments throughout your life. But that won’t earn you salvation - Luther and Calvin would both tell you that there is nothing you can do that will earn you salvation. According to Protestant doctrine, salvation comes from God alone. You can’t save yourself - only God can save you. So it your faith isn’t strong enough, nothing else you’ve done matters. Which brings me back to my original question: why have Commandments? Why didn’t God just come out and say “The only thing I want is your faith. All that other stuff? I don’t care about it. Set up a legal system on your own and decide what you think the laws should be.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/31 "2010-10-11T07:35:45Z")
It seems that you’re asking a question about Lutheranism. Anglicanism doesn’t necessarily absorb all of that doctrine: it was formed to cut royalty some slack regarding divorce. I’m not sure whether its offshoots – Methodists, Presbyterians and Quakers for example-- really care that much about faith vs. works. Personally, I find the debate to be rather sterile. ETA: I can make up an answer though. You’re stuck on God 1.0, the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Jesus quotes Hillel and says to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/32 "2010-10-11T07:50:43Z")
Here’s a link which gives different views on salvation. Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christian denominations generally believe that good works don’t affect salvation. Catholics disagree. Liberal Christians (according to the website) are skeptical of the idea of hell, so salvation isn’t especially important. Mainline Christians fall in between the evangelical and liberal positions. Furthermore, “Individual members do not necessarily agree with the stated position of their denomination.” [http://www.religioustolerance.org/sal\_over.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/sal_over.htm) ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/33 "2010-10-11T08:47:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@grimpixie](#): > > > > I wouldn’t say that it has _no_ consequences - repeated, deliberate and/or habitual breaking of commandments will damage your relationship in the same way that breaking your marriage vows will damage your relationship with your spouse. You may technically still remain married, but the chances of the relationship surviving diminish. > > > > Ultimately, most Protestant denominations teach that salvation comes through God’s Grace alone - nothing we do can earn it. Not good works, not obedience to the commandments, not even (IMHO) a declaration of faith. See Ephesians 2 > > This is the central contradiction I’m asking about. If faith alone is sufficient then faith alone is sufficient. But if you say that you also have to obey the Commandments then you’re saying that faith alone is not sufficient - that obeying the Commandments (good works) is a necessary step towards salvation. Faith alone is sufficient for salvation, in the same way that a signed piece of paper issued by the appropriate authority is sufficient to make a marriage. I’m not saying that you _have_ to follow any rules/obey any commandments to “be a Christian” or “to be saved”, in the same way that you don’t need to treat your spouse nicely or remember your anniversary in order to stay married, but once the relationship exists, one would hope that you would wish to please your spouse and make the marriage a happy one. The whole Bible (not just the commandments) is a story wherein God reveals the things that delight and displease Him, and it offers directions/guidelines to those who would explore a full and meaningful relationship with Him. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/34 "2010-10-11T11:37:45Z")
So you try to keep the Mosaic commandments, but it’s still necessary to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Forgiveness for breaking the commandments can also be had, if it’s accompanied by repentance. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/35 "2010-10-11T16:33:03Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > So you try to keep the Mosaic commandments, but it’s still necessary to accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour. Forgiveness for breaking the commandments can also be had, if it’s accompanied by repentance. The point however is that while you can be forgiven for breaking the commandments if you want to be, it’s not necessary. You can, if you wish, go through life committing murder, theft, adultery, and various other crimes with no intention of ever stopping. But as long as you maintain your faith in Jesus, you’ll be okay when you die. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/36 "2010-10-11T17:25:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point however is that while you can be forgiven for breaking the commandments if you want to be, it’s not necessary. You can, if you wish, go through life committing murder, theft, adultery, and various other crimes with no intention of ever stopping. But as long as you maintain your faith in Jesus, you’ll be okay when you die. Unfair, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/37 "2010-10-11T18:19:15Z")
The answer is found in the Book of James, which says “Faith without works is dead” What this is saying is if you have faith, good works will automatically flow from you. And that is a good way to see if you really have faith, if you’re not doing good works, the faith you have isn’t real, but dead. It’s kind of like saying to be alive you must be breathing. So if you test a man to see if he’s breathing then you can say he’s alive. Breathing is PART of being alive, just as good works is PART of having faith ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/38 "2010-10-11T19:07:00Z")
I dunno. I think you Protestants are trying to slip one in here. You say faith alone is all that’s needed but you keep trying to sneak good works in like a shipping and handling fee. ---
**Author:** ![pyromyte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d26b3c/32.png) [@pyromyte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pyromyte)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/39 "2010-10-11T19:34:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point however is that while you can be forgiven for breaking the commandments if you want to be, it’s not necessary. You can, if you wish, go through life committing murder, theft, adultery, and various other crimes with no intention of ever stopping. But as long as you maintain your faith in Jesus, you’ll be okay when you die. I think what you are missing is that if you maintain faith in Jesus, you will not wish to go through life displeasing God (committing bad acts). If you are truly accepting of salvation through Christ you will wish to please god, and therefore would not wish to go through life committing murder, theft, etc. We know these things displease God because of the commandments and other passages throughout the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/40 "2010-10-11T19:34:37Z")
I think you are confusing “How can I be saved?” with “How should I live my life?” They are not the same question. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437.md?page=3)