# Good works and commandments. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437 "2010-10-08T00:58:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/41 "2010-10-11T19:48:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I dunno. I think you Protestants are trying to slip one in here. You say faith alone is all that’s needed but you keep trying to sneak good works in like a shipping and handling fee. Good one! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/42 "2010-10-11T20:10:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The point however is that while you can be forgiven for breaking the commandments if you want to be, it’s not necessary. You can, if you wish, go through life committing murder, theft, adultery, and various other crimes with no intention of ever stopping. But as long as you maintain your faith in Jesus, you’ll be okay when you die. What do you mean by “faith in Jesus”? The way I understand it, it’s incompatible with going through life sommitting murder, etc. with no intention of ever stopping. [QUOTE=Jesus] If you love me, you will obey what I command. … If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. (John 14:15, 23-24) [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jesus] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. … Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7: 18, 21) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/43 "2010-10-11T20:37:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I think what you are missing is that if you maintain faith in Jesus, you will not wish to go through life displeasing God (committing bad acts). If you are truly accepting of salvation through Christ you will wish to please god, and therefore would not wish to go through life committing murder, theft, etc. We know these things displease God because of the commandments and other passages throughout the bible. I understand all that. Like I said I was raised a Catholic. Our doctrine is that you’re supposed to obey certain rules set by God. Catholics believe that good works matter. But Protestant founders like Luther and Calvin explicitly rejected that doctrine. They stated that God does not care what you do - God’s only concern is that you have faith. God is indifferent to anything else. It doesn’t make any difference to him whether you commit murder or refrain from committing murder. If you claim that obeying the Commandments has an effect on your salvation, then you’re saying your actions can influence your salvation. And that’s a rejection of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/44 "2010-10-11T20:40:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think you are confusing “How can I be saved?” with “How should I live my life?” They are not the same question. That’s true but the only issue I’m discussing in this thread is how I can be saved. The question of how I should live my love is something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/45 "2010-10-11T20:43:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What do you mean by “faith in Jesus”? The way I understand it, it’s incompatible with going through life sommitting murder, etc. with no intention of ever stopping. How is it incompatible? I believe in the divinity of Jesus and that his sacrifice on the cross saved us. And I kill people. How is impossible for me to do both of these things? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/46 "2010-10-11T21:04:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > What do you mean by “faith in Jesus”? The way I understand it, it’s incompatible with going through life sommitting murder, etc. with no intention of ever stopping. > > How is it incompatible? I believe in the divinity of Jesus and that his sacrifice on the cross saved us. And I kill people. How is impossible for me to do both of these things? It isn’t impossible, but believing in Jesus usually implies taking His words seriously. If you love your children, you take care of them. If you love your Lord, you obey Him. It follows rather naturally. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/47 "2010-10-11T22:00:20Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > And that is a good way to see if you really have faith, if you’re not doing good works, the faith you have isn’t real, but dead. If you observe the good works, that’s an outward sign that the faith is real? Like breathing is an outward sign that a person is not dead? Running with that idea, if a person says he’s an atheist, but does good works, he really has faith in Jesus? I guess that kind of goes along with Psalms 14:1, where it says that atheists never ever do good. If they do good, they’re not atheists, no matter what they claim. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/48 "2010-10-11T22:17:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It isn’t impossible, but believing in Jesus usually implies taking His words seriously. > > If you love your children, you take care of them. If you love your Lord, you obey Him. It follows rather naturally. But if God specifically tells me that my deeds don’t concern him, then shouldn’t I take him at his word? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/49 "2010-10-12T04:13:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you claim that obeying the Commandments has an effect on your salvation, then you’re saying your actions can influence your salvation. And that’s a rejection of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. What we’re saying is that Protestants see it the other way around: that your salvation has an effect on whether you obey the Commandments. It’s not that faith requires obedience, but rather that it inspires it. And yes, this is probably kind of a dodge. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/50 "2010-10-12T04:33:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The commandments were provided to show that we could never follow them and needed another route to God that of the Grace of Jesus. We were never meant to follow the commandments, such as King David and Jesus violate the written code yet found blameless. But I thought a number of folks in the OT were explicitly noted for having kept all the commandments: Joshua, Hezekiah, arguably Job – and IIRC we never actually hear about Elijah screwing up, he just relays assorted prophecies and performs a number of flashy miracles before handing off his mantle and then ascending to heaven in a whirlwind once the wondrous chariot appears. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/51 "2010-10-12T04:44:39Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > If you claim that obeying the Commandments has an effect on your salvation, then you’re saying your actions can influence your salvation. And that’s a rejection of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. > > What we’re saying is that Protestants see it the other way around: that your salvation has an effect on whether you obey the Commandments. It’s not that faith requires obedience, but rather that it inspires it. > > And yes, this is probably kind of a dodge. 😉 Now we’re getting into predestination, signs of election, and maybe even irresistible grace. And I think this is already confusing enough on just one point of doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437/52 "2010-10-12T04:54:35Z")
The bible has conflicting passages, unsurprisingly. Links: [http://www.religioustolerance.org/salvintro.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/salvintro.htm) [http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr\_savc.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_savc.htm) While many Protestants advocate Faith and Works, I tend to lean more towards Works and Faith. So I’ll choose my quotations accordingly: **Micah 6:8** : …and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?" (ASV) This clearly implies that salvation is attained by being kind to others and walking humbly with Jehovah. There goes the faith-only school. Now let’s see what Jesus said: **Matthew 16:19** 16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” Good question, right? “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” See? Obey the commandments. Nothing about faith, baptism, abortion or gay marriage. Jesus continues: Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]" Pretty simple right? Nothing about a personal relationship with Jesus either. What about supply side economics and tax cuts? Jesus continues: 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Well that about wraps it up for modern Conservative Christianity. Traditional conservatives, the humble, the pious retain their favored places. Luckily for the rest of us, the Lord has mercy. (Click the links on the top of this post for quotes affirming the opposite conclusion.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-and-commandments/556437.md?page=2)