# Good works not enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855 "2002-07-14T01:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/1 "2002-07-14T01:08:06Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=125324), **WV\_Woman** says > [@](#): > > Not slamming Mormons but everything I have read about their teachings suggest that Jesus needs a little help saving us, which is where our good works supposedly come in. In other words, Jesus is Savior too, but so are the good things we do. My question is why denigrate good works? I don’t follow any religion, so I’m not really defending the LDS church, but I would think that doing good would be the cornerstone of any worthwhile religion. Could you explain this to me please? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/2 "2002-07-14T01:12:33Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** Could you please choose a thread title which addresses a particular _topic_ rather than a particular poster? Something like “Why denigrate good works?”, I suppose. Just let me know, and I’ll change this one. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/3 "2002-07-14T01:13:53Z")
Sure, “good works not enough?” will work. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/4 "2002-07-14T01:17:14Z")
Thanks, grendel72. The thread title has been updated. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/5 "2002-07-14T01:32:10Z")
Well, I know that many protestant sects have said in the past that “good works are irrelevant. It’s what you believe that matters”. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/6 "2002-07-14T01:54:50Z")
I guess now that I think about it that the belief that Jesus is the key to heaven is a cornerstone of some denominations. My “good works” haven’t been all that extensive, but one incident that sticks out in my mind was when I spent thanksgiving helping out at a soup kitchen- that was instigated by a friend of mine who is a christian. I guess this ties into the old “ghandi in hell” argument, but I know christians who believe that good works _do_ matter. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/7 "2002-07-14T02:03:44Z")
While performing good works (and no ‘bad works’!) does make you a good person, one that any Christian should be A-OK with, in and of themselves, goodworks do not make you a Christian. A Christian would be “one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ”, to steal from M-W. A kinda-sorta analogy: I do not drink or eat pork. Does that make me a Muslim? Nope. Doing good things generally makes you a good person, but not neccesarily a good _Christian_ person. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/8 "2002-07-14T02:22:06Z")
True, **Brutus** , and I don’t consider myself a christian. The question I had was about mormons, who consider themselves to be christians. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/9 "2002-07-14T02:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Doing good things generally makes you a good person, but not neccesarily a good _Christian_ person. This raises this question, why is it important to be a good Christian? Or _is_ it important to be a good Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/10 "2002-07-14T02:32:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > This raises this question, why is it important to be a good Christian? Or _is_ it important to be a good Christian? \*\* To Christians, it is important to be a good Christian, for circular reasons. To others? I don’t know, but I imagine that Hindus, for instance, don’t really care about being good Christians 😉 Of course, some branches of Christianity are all for preaching to the heathens, so for those branches, it appears that it is importants for everyone to be a good Christian. ---
**Author:** ![KingDavid8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@KingDavid8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KingDavid8)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/11 "2002-07-14T03:20:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\* > This raises this question, why is it important to be a good Christian? Or _is_ it important to be a good Christian? \*\* All Christians consider Jesus to be pretty darned good. We want others to get to know Him. If we’re a bunch of selfish jerks who don’t care about anyone but ourselves, who’s going to listen to us? We can preach at people all we want, but if they don’t like us, they aren’t going to acknowledge us, and they’ll never get to know Jesus. But if we prove ourselves to be good, decent, caring people, they’re more likely to listen, and thus more likely to accept Jesus. The obvious hatred, greed and disrespect of some Christians is one of the main things keeping many people from converting. I’d say the Televangelists probably postponed my conversion by a few years. The Bible says the three gifts of the spirit are faith, hope, and love, and that love is the greatest of them. It’s love (and I mean genuine love and not a pretend one) that keeps it all going. Without love, Christianity would die. Heck, without love, we’d all die. David ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/12 "2002-07-14T03:48:26Z")
“That dog can’t hunt” was WV’s comment about the LDS teaching. It had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Nor did it have anything to do with if the LDS is a conservative or liberal branch of Christianity. That’s all I have to say on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/13 "2002-07-14T03:48:32Z")
There’s nothing wrong with good works, grendel. Christians are commanded to well, do good stuff. But to say that good works saves you is saying, basically, that Jesus didn’t do the whole job (of saving us) on the cross. We have to “help” him get us into heaven by (fill in good work here). To say that it takes _anything else_ besides the blood of Christ to be saved is well … not Christian (thus the thing I said about Mormonism). It doesn’t take a dress code, membership in a specific denomination (you’d be amazed at how many denominations think they are _THE_ Church), feeding the poor, etc. Yes, it’s good to feed the poor, it’s good to not dress seductively, but according to the Bible that stuff is meaningless when it comes to the issue of whether or not you’re going to heaven. Hope this answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/14 "2002-07-14T03:51:48Z")
WV: How about inserting the words “in my opinion” after your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/15 "2002-07-14T03:59:25Z")
Monty how about reading a conversation in its entirety before getting your knickers in a wad? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/16 "2002-07-14T04:00:28Z")
Then there’s a bunch of stuff from the New Testament: Titus 1:16 > [@](#): > > they know God, but in works they deny him James 2:14 > [@](#): > > What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:17 > [@](#): > > Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. James 2:19-22 > [@](#): > > Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believ, and tremble. > But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? > Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? > Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by his works was faith made perfect? James 2:24 > [@](#): > > Ye see then how that by works a man is justifed, and not by faith only. But then, maybe you don’t see. p.s. The subject that was all I had to say above was the Mormon bashing. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/17 "2002-07-14T04:02:05Z")
Thanks for answering **WV\_W** , I can see where you are coming from although I dissagree with you. The reasoning of one of my friends, a liberal former southern baptist, was that God is just and would not damn a good person who had never been exposed to christianity. Being a non-believer myself I hope you don’t consider the question out of line, I am honestly curious about many religious beliefs whether I believe in them or not. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/18 "2002-07-14T04:02:08Z")
I did read it. How about laying off the offensive comments? ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/19 "2002-07-14T04:08:44Z")
Ya might wanna throw in the verse that states “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.” --Eph 2:8-9 And that’s all I’m gonna say about that. This is not the time nor the place to have a war of Bible verses. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/20 "2002-07-14T04:10:46Z")
Grendel, God _is_ just. If, by some chance someone had not heard the gospel and ended up dying before they could, I am sure He has arrangements. You have to HEAR the gospel in order to be able to accept/reject it. If you never hear it (which would be _extremely_ hard in this day and age), you never had a chance, ya know? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855.md?page=2)