# Good works not enough? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855 "2002-07-14T01:08:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/41 "2002-07-14T18:01:55Z")
Qad, that’s a good question. I will tell you what the Bible says and you can take it or leave it, k? It says that all humans are inherently bad (because of sin), WITH THE CAPACITY TO DO GOOD AT TIMES. It’s not that we can’t do good, it’s just that we can’t stop from being bad. Christians are not “good” because of anything they have done. Jesus had to be “good” for us first, and we take on what he has done. Christians still do both good and bad things, “saved” or not, same as non-Christians. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/42 "2002-07-14T18:05:50Z")
**Guin** , I think you’ve got the wrong chapter in Matthew. For those interested, here’s the entire “Sheep and Goats” thing, found in Matthew 25:31ff: > [@](#): > > 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. > 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. > 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. > 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. > 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, > 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ > 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? > 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? > 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ > 40 "The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ > 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. > 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, > 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ > 44 "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ > 45 "He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ > 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” By my reading, Jesus is basically saying, “If you don’t do good works, you’re going to hell”. Quote what you will from the rest of the New Testament, but I’d expect that the words of Jesus carry a certain weight that the others don’t. FTR, I am not a Christian, but I was raised as one, so I am at least somewhat familiar with all this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/43 "2002-07-14T18:38:33Z")
D’oh! You’re right! I was quoting Chapter 2_5_ of Matthew! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/44 "2002-07-14T18:58:22Z")
**Qadgop** , cart and horse and all of that. First, Christ said what was good. Being good was being like Christ (Michael Jordan references omitted). Relevant quotes have been given here. So, the question is: how can one be a bad Christian? Seems contradictory: to be bad, you would have to go against Christ. But in doing so you would fail to be a Christian. So there can be no bad Christians. Christians can do bad things; in doing so, they are not in their capacity as a Christian (if they were, they wouldn’t be doing them!). Not quite the same thing as Nixon. The Watergate thing is God killing whole towns of people. It can’t be wrong, God did it, etc. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/45 "2002-07-14T19:16:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > So, the question is: how can one be a bad Christian? Seems contradictory: to be bad, you would have to go against Christ. But in doing so you would fail to be a Christian. So there can be no bad Christians. Christians can do bad things; in doing so, they are not in their capacity as a Christian (if they were, they wouldn’t be doing them!). One can be a bad christian if they believe christ was _bad_. I think the Fred Phelpses of this world believe they are being christian, they believe in a vengeful and flat out _evil_ christ. Ann Coulter has said non christians should be forcibly converted. Would most good christians say they are being unchristian? Just to clarify, I think most christians _are_ good, and that trying to be more like christ is not a bad idea even for non-christians, but some seem to believe that christ wasn’t a nice guy. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/46 "2002-07-14T19:26:00Z")
Sure, but thinking Christ was bad isn’t being very Christian. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/47 "2002-07-14T19:40:02Z")
Oh, and > [@](#): > > …but some seem to believe that christ wasn’t a nice guy. “Nice”? But christ is the standard of goodness (niceness)! See my confusion here? ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/48 "2002-07-14T19:59:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*Oh, and"Nice"? But christ is the standard of goodness (niceness)! See my confusion here? \*\* From what I’ve read of the bible christ was a good guy, but some people who claim to be christians seem to be reading a different bible. You say that it is logically impossible to be a “bad” christian, I ask do you consider Fred Phelps, Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, Jack Chick etc. to be christians? If so how can you consider them “good”? If not, who decides which self-proclaimed chistians are and aren’t “real” christians? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/49 "2002-07-14T20:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > If not, who decides which self-proclaimed chistians are and aren’t “real” christians? Christ! 😃 No, really, this is the question, an unfortunately serious version of the “true scotsman” argument. And this is my confusion. Consider: what is a Christian? Simply: a follower of Christ. What does that mean? We must ask Christ. Is Fred Phelps following Christ? He thinks so from the questions he has asked Him. Which is the true scotsman? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/50 "2002-07-14T20:16:25Z")
Oh, WV, and in this thread, [Paralells between Mormons and Muslims](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=125046), you weren’t lambasting an entire faith group (the Muslims) while at the same time admitting that you were doing so lacking knowledge about them? There’s a word for folks who do that. Same word applies to those who decide that those who consider themselves Christians (the LDS) aren’t “really Christians.” BTW, you go by _what you think the Bible says_, and the LDS go by _what we think the Bible and our other scriptures say_. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/51 "2002-07-14T20:25:11Z")
But that brings up a major problem. If christ is good, and striving to be more like him makes you good those who serve evil can not be christians. Objective, real world morality has to enter the picture: causing harm to others is _wrong_. The Jesus I read about in the bible would not practice or even condone the tactics Phelps and others carry out in his name. I submit that it is clear that there _are_ “bad” christians; being christians doesn’t make them good, being “bad” doesn’t make them non-christians- christ may reject them but they profess him. [sub]or something.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/52 "2002-07-14T20:29:29Z")
No _real_ Christian would do such a thing, you say? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/53 "2002-07-14T21:08:09Z")
No, you don’t… I am sorry to imply you did. But you say “bad” Christians… but “bad” is defined by Christ/God. _So how can a person be a follower of Christ and still be bad_? It seems downright paradoxical, IMNSHO, and the only way out of it is the true scotsman argument; that is, they aren’t _really_ following Christ. Perhaps I should bow out here… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/54 "2002-07-14T21:31:33Z")
Monty I am not going to get into it with you. Yes, I go by what the Bible says. You, on the other hand, seem to think that God not only needs our help getting us saved, but He needs help with His book as well … as in, He couldn’t even get His own book right on the first try. We are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/55 "2002-07-14T21:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WV\_Woman \* > **Yes, I go by what the Bible says. You, on the other hand, seem to think that God not only needs our help getting us saved, but He needs help with His book as well … as in, He couldn’t even get His own book right on the first try.** To the best of my knowledge, this is a gross mischaracterization of the Mormon faith. Mormons don’t believe that God “couldn’t get His own book right on the first try.” Rather, they believe that God chose not to reveal it all at once. Can you appreciate the difference? ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/56 "2002-07-14T21:38:25Z")
Not when the books contradict, no. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/57 "2002-07-14T21:42:14Z")
**WV\_Woman** -couldn’t the Jews say the same things about Christianity? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/58 "2002-07-14T21:49:29Z")
If Jews wanna say that, let them. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/59 "2002-07-14T23:31:49Z")
How about cake? _Yes, it’s an analogy._ ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855/60 "2002-07-15T01:26:08Z")
And couldn’t the Catholics say that about the Protestants? Protestants use the Jewish canon for their Old Testament, while Catholics use the Septuagint, which includes the Apocrypha. So which one of you has “_the_ Bible,” WV\_Woman – you, or the Catholics? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-works-not-enough/118855.md?page=4)