# Goodbye assault weapons ban! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666 "2004-09-08T19:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/21 "2004-09-09T22:44:16Z")
Also, sorry for my last post. Forgot we were in IMHO - the last post was GDish. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/22 "2004-09-09T23:03:16Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > While this has to be the dumbest add-on to the AWB, I was thrilled to find out it was in there. It showed how meaningless the ban was and almost guaranteed it wouldn’t survive a re-vote. > > I think I’ll break out the Jimmy Buffet CD and listen to “Come Monday” again. 😉 That statement ( **Senor Beef** ’s and many other’s) didn’t thrill only **duffer**. The “scary thing” sentiment was pretty much forced on the anti’s by the dogged insistance that they define “assault weapon”. Anything even _close_ to sensible, such as “convertible to full auto” etc, was roundly shouted down, leaving them with the silly sounding “cosmetic details”. It worked. Now ol’ **Crafter\_Man** can keep me free from slavery. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/23 "2004-09-09T23:20:48Z")
One more question I have with the lifting of the ban. Will rifles be legal to sell as full-auto? Or, the 3-shot auto? Or are we still stuck with a single-shot semi-auto to stay legal? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/24 "2004-09-09T23:27:12Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That statement ( **Senor Beef** ’s and many other’s) didn’t thrill only **duffer**. The “scary thing” sentiment was pretty much forced on the anti’s by the dogged insistance that they define “assault weapon”. Anything even _close_ to sensible, such as “convertible to full auto” etc, was roundly shouted down, leaving them with the silly sounding “cosmetic details”. It worked. > Now ol’ **Crafter\_Man** can keep me free from slavery. 😉 This is because there are no standards by which “assault weapons” can be distinguished other than cosmetic and immaterial things. Any semi-automatic can be converted into a fully automatic weapon. The crippled semi-auto military derivative weapons don’t have some button you can push somewhere making it an evil child killing machine. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/25 "2004-09-09T23:33:26Z")
Hasn’t full auto been mostly banned for a long, long time? This reminds me of when I was a kid. My mom would yell at us for having the TV too loud. “Turn it down, or I’ll turn it off”. So one of us would go and (oops) turn it even louder, apologize, and turn it down to a little louder that it was in the first place. A net gain for us, and she never really caught on. 🆒 Is this, in a sense, what you guys are up to? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/26 "2004-09-09T23:35:37Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > One more question I have with the lifting of the ban. Will rifles be legal to sell as full-auto? Or, the 3-shot auto? Or are we still stuck with a single-shot semi-auto to stay legal? The AWB doesn’t affect fully automatic weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/27 "2004-09-10T00:00:26Z")
[quote] > [@duffer](#): > > One more question I have with the lifting of the ban. Will rifles be legal to sell as full-auto? Or, the 3-shot auto? Or are we still stuck with a single-shot semi-auto to stay legal? > [@](#): > > The AWB doesn’t affect fully automatic weapons. To elaborate: By definition, an “assault **rifle** ” has automatic capability. That is, an “assalt rifle” is a machine gun that can be switched to an autoloader (one shot per pull of the trigger), or an autoloader that can be switched to a machine gun. The switch is made, litterally, with a switch. “Assault **weapon** ” is pretty much a term made up by the anti-gun crowd. This is an autoloader (i.e., semi-automatic or “one shot per pull of the trigger”) that has cosmetic features that differentiate it from other autoloaders that are functionally identical. For example, a Ruger Mini-14 is a .223 caliber, gas-operated, magazine-fed semiautomatic rifle. A Colt AR-15 Sporter (discontinued years ago) and its clones is also a .223 caliber, gas-operated, magazine-fed semiautomatic rifle; except that it has a pistol grip, bayonette lug, and flash supressor. These “extra” features do have functions. The pistol grip reduces felt recoil. The bayonette lug allows you to attach a bayonette (which has never been a crime problem). The flash supressor reduces the big ball of fire that comes out of the end, and also reduces the amount of dirt kicked up (some of which is drawn into the muzzle) when firing from a prone position. But they’re basically cosmetic. **"Full-auto machine guns"** have been banned for the better part of a century, and are not affected by the AWB. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/28 "2004-09-10T00:04:02Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It’s a completely useless law. I’m glad to see it go. > > I love assault weapons… M14/M1A, FAL, AR-10, H&K 91, AR-15, SKS, AK-47. I love 'em all, though I must admit I have a particular fondness for full-size main battle rifles (7.62 x 51 / .308). I currently have a metric [FAL](http://www.falfiles.com/images/stg58logo.jpg). It’s a “post ban,” which means it has a muzzle brake instead of a flashhider. After this Monday I’ll be allowed to install a flashider, but the damn brake was welded to the barrel. I don’t think I can get it off without screwing up the barrel threads. ☹ > > I’m also in the process of building another FAL using a new Imbel receiver and new Imbel barrel. (It’s for my son. He’s only 15 months old. Of course, by the time he’s old enough to shoot, the rifle will probably be banned. :mad: ) Anyway, this rifle will have a threaded barrel and flash hider. 🙂 > > I just pray the Nazis in congress won’t pass another AWB. :mad: Not that I would ever give up my rifles. I’ll just have to be more discrete… 😉 You interest me, **Crafter\_Man** , you and your higher than unusual interest in things gun. I am ambivalent about firearms. I have a honest, non-judgemental question for you, if you wish to answer. Please take no offense at my prying. How do you think you will react if your son, at age 9 or so, says to you “Dad, I really don’t want to shoot anymore. Guns bore me”? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/29 "2004-09-10T00:15:41Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > How do you think you will react if your son, at age 9 or so, says to you “Dad, I really don’t want to shoot anymore. Guns bore me”? If it were **my** kid, the response would be “That’s ok, son. Just means more for Daddy. By the way, can I have that Uzi I got you for your 7th birthday?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/30 "2004-09-10T00:39:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If it were **my** kid, the response would be “That’s ok, son. Just means more for Daddy. By the way, can I have that Uzi I got you for your 7th birthday?” > > 😃 Sure, dad. I’ll trade you for that dusty old Strat in your closet. A friend is an avid dirt bike racer. Competes and everything. A couple years ago his son, 11 now, told his dad that what he really wanted to do was play guitar. Ol’ pops was devastated, but got the kid a guitar. He (the son) still practices like 20 or more hours a week, and is getting to be pretty good. My friend is truly proud, but I think there’s still a small “what if” going on. He’s a good guy. He still races. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/31 "2004-09-10T01:23:53Z")
Good for the kid. I never met a guy who broke his leg playing guitar. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/32 "2004-09-10T02:23:23Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] > [@](#): > > **"Full-auto machine guns"** have been banned for the better part of a century, and are not affected by the AWB. Huh–you sure? I thought a US citizen could own/possess them provided s/he had a permit. I’m talking everything, including .50 machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/33 "2004-09-10T02:38:41Z")
Kind of a nitpick, eh **Carnac**? FWIW, I’m a native Californian and they’re banned there. In some other states, they’re just restricted. In order to own a machine gun you need to apply for a permit and pay a $200 transfer tax. Then you undergo a background investigation, which I gather is similar to getting a Secret clearance. I’ve heard it takes months. In addition you have to live in a state where they’re permitted. There may be other restrictions, but I don’t know what they are. My point was that so-called “assault weapons” are not capable of automatic fire. On a tangent: I’ve heard that people have made machine guns out of lever-action Winchester carbines. True, or not? (I can see how it could work; but I don’t know if it’s been done.) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/34 "2004-09-10T02:45:44Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > You interest me, **Crafter\_Man** , you and your higher than unusual interest in things gun. Worthy of a anthropological study, perhaps? 😉 > [@mangeorge](#): > > How do you think you will react if your son, at age 9 or so, says to you “Dad, I really don’t want to shoot anymore. Guns bore me”? I would be disappointed, and hope he would “come around” in a few years. But I’m not the kind of parent who would force his children to do anything. If he (for example) wanted to play guitar instead, I’d support him. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/35 "2004-09-10T03:14:41Z")
🆒 cool. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/36 "2004-09-10T03:52:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Honest question for you: why do you say that you “need” high capacity clips? > > “Want” I can understand, but “need?” I read **Ravenman** ’ **s** post, and then read **Crafter\_Man** ’ **s** response that . . . > [@](#): > > I _need_ a main battle rifle (e.g. FAL). I consider it a necessary tool for protecting my liberty. I also need 20-round magazines. They increase my rifle’s firepower and handiness, thus making it a more effective tool . Given the two of them, I was torn between the “want” and the “need”. But then again I read his second response and I got to thinking. He’s got a point, and for me it’s kind of weird. If I’m in a conflict, whether it be with a Montana grizzly bear or an Iraqi insurgent with an RPG, I want the best tool I can carry–and aside from his comments, I consider a firearm just that: an inanimate tool used to express the intent of the individual behind the trigger (my wording, quote me on that). So how does the AWB affect me? I can now go hiking and camping in the woods with a couple of extra .40SW or .45ACP rounds in the magazine as a _want_ versus a need as per **Ravenman** , and can now put the same nifty flash suppressor (which works darned well at keeping my barrel down from recoil) on my AR-15, as per **Crafter\_man**. But by God, I’ll stand by both of them defending them from slavery or any threat from any government any day. Here’s what strikes me as ignorant about this particular law though: Yes, I understand the dynamics of importation, shipment to FFLs in different states (how do you think I got my Kimber .45s last week?), and other issues. But I truly believe that this sort of legislation is best left to the states themselves: I don’t see the need for semiautomatic shotguns in a heavily populated New Jersey, but with a good argument to counter my initial instincts, I could see myself understanding the allowance of those same shotguns in say, grizzly-friendly Alaska. I say, let the states decide what they want. The citizens will then decide their support thereafter. Tripler A long signature: I have a side benefit of getting around the military’s “General Order #1”. It says ‘No private firearms!!’. It doesn’t say I can take all my personally owned M-16/AR-15 30-round magazines and accessories. I wouldn’t want to take anything less than everything into a firefight. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/37 "2004-09-10T04:46:37Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Huh–you sure? I thought a US citizen could own/possess them provided s/he had a permit. I’m talking everything, including .50 machine guns. Their manufacture and importation is banned. You can still own ones that were made or imported before the ban, but due to limited supply, their prices are far far beyond their actual sales value. You see, for about 55 years, 0 crimes were commited by legally owned fully automatic firearms by private citizens. And that was just too much - they had to be banned. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/38 "2004-09-10T05:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > I have to ask, and I ask out of genuine curiousity, how is a main battle rifle going to help you defend your liberty? And against whom? You wanna know the truth? Well, all of us ‘Pubbie gun nuts elected Bush back in 2000 simply because _we know he’s gonna try to declare himself dictator_. After 200 years of sayin’ it, we finally want some ACTION! 😃 Well, okay, the REAL reason comes a lot closer to “there’s no reason NOT to have them.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/39 "2004-09-10T05:27:07Z")
Shooting this over to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666/40 "2004-09-10T05:49:19Z")
> [@Carnac the Magnificent!](#): > > Huh–you sure? I thought a US citizen could own/possess them provided s/he had a permit. I’m talking everything, including .50 machine guns. I think its a class 3 dealers permit , to buy , possess and sell fully automatic weaponry , like squad support weapons like the M-60 , or a browning 50 calibre machine gun and the like. Declan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-assault-weapons-ban/263666.md?page=3)