# Goodbye Señor Presidente **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 16, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053 "2004-08-16T05:00:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/21 "2004-08-16T17:11:11Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Oh, and don’t forget having the government take over the country’s main independent newspaper (under the excuse that the boss of its parent company was in hot water over bank/securities so all its assets had to be impounded). That one was a priceless move. > > Here’s to things getting better, neighbors – you need all the luck you can get! Thanks neighbor. Haiti, DR and Puerto Rico. That’s some messed daisy chain we have here, eh? Hopefully some days you guys would be flocking back in here like a 100 years ago and we’ll pay you back for the inconvenience. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/22 "2004-08-16T17:11:42Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > **SA** , I don’t know what rumours you’ve heard, but I swear I am \*not \* your aunt. 😉 😛 > [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Actually \*two \* of us are SDMB members. You’d have to guess which is which. Thanks a lot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/23 "2004-08-16T18:06:08Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Bricker, I always say that the worse thing that Hipólito Mejia has done is to convince me that Balaguer wasn’t so bad. And THAT my friend is some accomplishment. I am as anti-Balaguer as it gets. > > Balaguer was a very smart man. So smart that he was creepy. A guy that can be presidents eight times, the last three of which he was near to completely blind, infirm, could barely walk and yet able to manipulate the populace… well that my friend is unheard of. He made an institution out of corruption and left with that legacy. I don’t know, at this point of my life I either got mellow or so cynical that compared to Mejia I can’t even muster enough indignation against Balaguer. Just our of curiousity: is your anti-Balaguer feeling something that comes from the long-ago association of Balaguer with Trujillio, or is it more recent? Because I think the post-Trujillio Balaguer can be defended quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/24 "2004-08-16T18:23:11Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Bricker, I always say that the worse thing that Hipólito Mejia has done is to convince me that Balaguer wasn’t so bad. And THAT my friend is some accomplishment. I am as anti-Balaguer as it gets. > > Balaguer was a very smart man. So smart that he was creepy. A guy that can be presidents eight times, the last three of which he was near to completely blind, infirm, could barely walk and yet able to manipulate the populace… well that my friend is unheard of. He made an institution out of corruption and left with that legacy. I don’t know, at this point of my life I either got mellow or so cynical that compared to Mejia I can’t even muster enough indignation against Balaguer. Just our of curiousity: is your anti-Balaguer feeling something that comes from the long-ago association of Balaguer with Trujillio, or is it more recent? Because I think the post-Trujillio Balaguer can be defended quite well. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/25 "2004-08-16T19:34:40Z")
Do many Dominican Americans hold dual citizenship, and are they able to vote? Do candidates for office in the Dominican Republic campaign amongst Dominican Americans? All I know about Balaguer was that he built a large lighthouse and monument in Santo Domingo for the 500th anniversary of Columbus’ landing - it was criticized as way too expensive for the nation’s budget and insensitive to the native American and African people. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/26 "2004-08-16T20:35:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Just our of curiousity: is your anti-Balaguer feeling something that comes from the long-ago association of Balaguer with Trujillio, or is it more recent? Because I think the post-Trujillio Balaguer can be defended quite well. I don’t know Bricker, if you forgive him \*that \* you obviously a better human being that I am. And I say that without a trace of cynism. I can not find it in my heart to forgive a participant in a homicidal and genocidal 30-year dictatorship who never showed regret. He was cold and calculating and clearly had a messianic complex. He was racist. He had no respect for Democracy and he though he knew best what was for all of us. If that is not enough, remember Los Doce Años, 12 years in which we found ourselves in the unusual position of having a virtual democratically elected dictorship. Mejia didn’t go as far, but only because he lacked the brains. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/27 "2004-08-16T20:49:29Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > Do many Dominican Americans hold dual citizenship, and are they able to vote? Do candidates for office in the Dominican Republic campaign amongst Dominican Americans? > > All I know about Balaguer was that he built a large lighthouse and monument in Santo Domingo for the 500th anniversary of Columbus’ landing - it was criticized as way too expensive for the nation’s budget and insensitive to the native American and African people. Leonel Fernández, the newly ‘annointed’ president was educated in the US (but he is a full citizen of the D.R. and cannot hold dual citizenship), he encouraged Dominicans abroad to naturalize whenever possible so they may influence the country where they live. A sensible position that I also support. Dominicans abroad can vote, and they did, over 70% of them voted for Leonel. Yes, Balaguer did build the Columbus lighthouse, another of Trujillo’s pet project. It was, and remains, a completely waste of money. He was a racist, bothering the native american or people of African descent was not a concern for him. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/28 "2004-08-16T21:44:38Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Yes, Balaguer did build the Columbus lighthouse, another of Trujillo’s pet project.¨ So he probably would get along very well with some of the mayors in my island! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/29 "2004-08-17T15:04:30Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Thanks neighbor. Haiti, DR and Puerto Rico. That’s some messed daisy chain we have here, eh? Hopefully some days you guys would be flocking back in here like a 100 years ago and we’ll pay you back for the inconvenience. 🙂 And don’t forget the big one off to your NW. That’s 4 aces if I ever saw some… It will be a good day, when all the boats on Mona Passage are sailing only for legitimate pleasure or business. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/30 "2004-08-17T16:03:42Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I don’t know Bricker, if you forgive him \*that \* you obviously a better human being that I am. And I say that without a trace of cynism. > > I can not find it in my heart to forgive a participant in a homicidal and genocidal 30-year dictatorship who never showed regret. He was cold and calculating and clearly had a messianic complex. He was racist. He had no respect for Democracy and he though he knew best what was for all of us. Well, here’s my way of thinking: I imagine you’re too young to have meaningfully lived through any of the Trujillo years… but I imagine your parents did. And unless either of their surnames was Mirabal, I’m guessing they did what most Dominicans did: live life and try not to piss off anyone with connections to the regime. Was it significantly different for Balaguer? He was one of many possible puppet presidents during the Trujillo years. Sure, he could have denounced Rafael and all he stood for… what would that have earned him but a quick disappearance? I would argue that he worked as best he could within the system. And when the opportunity came to force the Trujillo family into exile, he played a valuable part in doing just that. Balaguer resigned, peacably enough, to usher in the Juan Bosch era, which was itself a disaster, and ended with a military coup and the US Marines being sent to restore order. He was re-elected then – given the highly-charged atmosphere, perhaps this was not entirely free and clear – but he brought continued order and undeniable civilian control of the military to the country. His re-elections in 1970 and 1974 were not forced on the country. Indeed, he lost in '78 to the PRD, and Guzman took power peaceably and with no fuss… hardly the stamp of a dictatorship being upended. So the PRD stayed in power with Jorge Blanco’s election… and if you want to talk corruption, look no further than government under Blanco. It was upon Balaguer’s return in 1986 that things were fixed: a new IMF agreement and a balanced budget – as well as an effort to curtail the blatant government corruption and fleecing of the country under the PRD – that caused the Domincan economy to boom in the 1990s. [quoteIf that is not enough, remember Los Doce Años, 12 years in which we found ourselves in the unusual position of having a virtual democratically elected dictorship. [/quote] I don’t see it that way at all. Admittedly, my epxerience is through books and newspapers. But Mrs. Bricker lived it, and she was a strong Reformista. One reason I love her! 🙂 - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/31 "2004-08-17T17:58:48Z")
I don’t know Bricker, you have a pretty white-washed view of this reality, probably through no fault of your own, maybe if you do seek to read about the opposing version of this view you will get a more complete picture. First the Trujillo dictatorship was like nothing we had seen before. Sure after the creation of the Republic we had a few quasi-dictators and another dictator (Lilís) that was also assassinated, however Trujillo plunged us to a new, deeper abyss. His was a regime without precedent: cruel, brutal, and genocidal. He was the closest thing to Hitler you would get in Latin America. Like somebody else said on this board, the only thing that stopped Trujillo from creating his own Reich was the size of his turf. If you would like to know more just search a name: **Johnny Abes** , the Caribbean Himmler. I know that you used the Mirabal sisters as an example, but don’t fool yourself, José Pueblo also suffered; the regular people could get themselves in hot water just for anything. Parents who refused Trujillo’s advances with their daughters soon found themselves in _La Cuarenta_. People who didn’t surrender their property to Trujillo disappeared or soon paid a visit to Mr. Abbes. The only place where you were safe was the grave. As Romulo Betancourt and Galindez soon found out been abroad or even been president of another nation was no guarantee. The long arm of \*El Jefe \* could reach you anywhere. If he could almost kill the Venezuelan president, what message do you think Dominicans at home got? The slightest thing would get you tortured or killed. Entire families were wiped out. One of my uncles had to hide in a latrine hole for weeks at the end of the regime. His crime? He threw out the plaque that every Dominican home HAD to prominently display reading _En esta casa Trujillo es el jefe_. Back to Balaguer… Balaguer was not a victim. He seeked and he got the position that he wanted. He wasn’t a lowly clerk in a government office, the guy wrote Trujillo’s speeches for god’s sake! He liked power, he lived for it and sacrificed everything for it. He was a self-confessed Machiavellian. He knew that his time would come, you can call him anything, but you can’t call him a fool. Once in power he did what he had learn from the previous boss: he suffocated critics, bribed opponents and killed those too inconvenient to be left alive. It was a _dictatorship lite_, so to speak. Once the people wised up and voted him out he did put up a fight not to release power. Don’t think otherwise, he had little intention to let go, it was international pressure that finally put him out of job for 8 years. And if the people hadn’t been fooled into voting for that corrupt moron, Salvador Jorge Blanco, we would have never had Balaguer sitting on that chair again. The PRD, as only they know why, defeated themselves. They have a phrase that couldn’t describe it better: ‘nobody defeats the PRD but the PRD’. But we are not wise in the way of politics. And we got him back, because after all ‘it’s better a known evil’. But this time he couldn’t do the ‘dictatorship lite’ act. We just wouldn’t take it. Despite unprecedented growth at the time, and relative prosperity he was forced to step down before the end of his term after two electoral frauds that kept him in power. Trust me Rick, I am passionate about what I believe, but when the time comes to choose what to believe I decide with a cool head and armed with facts. Some people miss Balaguer, heck, some miss Trujillo, after all when we had El Jefe streets were clean and there was no crime and… and had we have trains they would have run on time too. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/32 "2004-08-17T18:33:35Z")
Sorry, it is Johnny _Abbes_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/33 "2004-08-17T20:05:17Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I don’t know Bricker, you have a pretty white-washed view of this reality, probably through no fault of your own, maybe if you do seek to read about the opposing version of this view you will get a more complete picture. > > First the Trujillo dictatorship was like nothing we had seen before. Sure after the creation of the Republic we had a few quasi-dictators and another dictator (Lilís) that was also assassinated, however Trujillo plunged us to a new, deeper abyss. His was a regime without precedent: cruel, brutal, and genocidal. He was the closest thing to Hitler you would get in Latin America. Like somebody else said on this board, the only thing that stopped Trujillo from creating his own Reich was the size of his turf. If you would like to know more just search a name: **Johnny Abes** , the Caribbean Himmler. No argument: Trujillo’s regime was brutal. > [@](#): > > Back to Balaguer… Balaguer was not a victim. He seeked and he got the position that he wanted. He wasn’t a lowly clerk in a government office, the guy wrote Trujillo’s speeches for god’s sake! He liked power, he lived for it and sacrificed everything for it. He was a self-confessed Machiavellian. He knew that his time would come, you can call him anything, but you can’t call him a fool. Once in power he did what he had learn from the previous boss: he suffocated critics, bribed opponents and killed those too inconvenient to be left alive. It was a _dictatorship lite_, so to speak. Here I must ask for a cite. Other than authorizing deadly force to suppress rioters, can you provide evidence that he “killed those too inconvenient to be left alive” anytime after 1965? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/34 "2004-08-17T20:46:36Z")
For obvious reasons I cannot provide cites through internet links. If I have time tomorrow I will dig up my books and will do so. BTW, did you read Balaguer’s autobiography? Did you know about the ‘blank page’ about which he says once he died somebody would produce his ‘confession’ on who killed journalist Orlando Martinez? Even if we want to be extremelly lenient you don’t need much in the way of confession. Anyways, he’s pretty dead, I am sure, but nobody has produced the confession. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/35 "2004-08-17T20:49:06Z")
Another thing… I hope you don’t expect me to prove that he \*personally \* killed anyone, or proof that he ordered it. Did you ever hear of ‘La Banda Colorá’? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/36 "2004-08-18T08:05:34Z")
Rick… I decided to do my best to answer your question, but I am not going to get my books. We recently moved and my books remain in our other place. They will be there for a while. Another problem I have is that not only there is very little available online, but also most everything is in Spanish. On top of that I have to choose very carefully who to quote, not everybody with an opinion and a website is worth quoting. Let’s start with this: > [@](#): > > Between the authoritarian measures taken in the Balaguer governments, Mu-Kien Sang indicates that many can be mentioned. As an example, the existence during the period of the 12 years of the “Banda Colorá”, paramilitary group. > … > “Another authoritarian strategy used by Balaguer”, she explains, “was the selective repression against leftist groups - mainly the MPD - and fraudulent elections”. > [http://ahora.com.do/Edicion1323/DEPORTADA/tema4.html](http://ahora.com.do/Edicion1323/DEPORTADA/tema4.html) Mu-Kien is a respected historian and member of Participación Ciudadana (non-political think-tank and pressure group seeking to make sure that government respect democratic principles). > [@](#): > > General Lluberes Montás (Chinino), accused of being one of the masterminds of the murder of journalist Orlando Martinez during ‘Los Doce Años’ of the government of president Joaquin Balaguer, was again jailed yesterday… > [http://orlandomartinez.8m.com/chinino3.html](http://orlandomartinez.8m.com/chinino3.html) > [@](#): > > Never before had the country’s media encountered a crisis like the one they are going through. Not even during the repressive governments of Joaquin Balaguer, when was journalists were persecuted, killed, and newspaper owners were blackmailed. > [http://www.revistaprobidad.info/024/013.pdf](http://www.revistaprobidad.info/024/013.pdf) > [@](#): > > A quarter of a century after gunning down their victim in the streets of Santo Domingo, four members of a government-backed death squad were sentenced earlier this month to 30 years each in prison for the political murder. > … > The four were found guilty of the March 17, 1975 murder of Orlando Martinez Howley, a member of the Dominican Communist Party and a journalist who was one of the most prominent critics of the dictatorship headed by Joaquin Balaguer. > … > It was one of these units, known as the “Banda Colorado,” that carried out the murder of Orlando Martinez in a street near the Autonomous University of Santo Domingo. > > The orders for the assassination came from Gen. Isidoro Martinez… > > The accused insisted that they were merely “obeying orders” from their superiors… > … > Balaguer, now 93, also refused to testify in the trial, citing poor health. This supposed condition did not prevent him from running for president in May… > > In a gesture of political arrogance and confidence in his continued impunity, Balaguer boasted that he knew who ordered and carried out the assas… > > There are countless other victims like Martinez Howley,… > > In addition there is the murdered student leader Amin Abel Hasbun; the leftist leader Otto Morales, and Maximiliano Gomez, assassinated in Brussels in 1971 in what was widely denounced as a CIA operation. During the high-point of the repression under Balaguer in the early 1970s it is estimated that the death squads murdered more than 2,000 workers, students and intellectual assassination… > [http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/domi-a23.shtml](http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/aug2000/domi-a23.shtml) I know that this article, for obvious reason considering the source, sound a little too hysterical, but despite that and misspelling a few names the article is pretty accurate. I’ll see what else I can dig up later. I hope that the last quote is not too long and complies with the SDMB rules, it is a long article and I couldn’t cut any more. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/37 "2004-08-18T11:38:48Z")
Y’know, if you go back and read the OP with Bush in mind, it almost fits… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053/38 "2004-08-18T11:40:07Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Y’know, if you go back and read the OP with Bush in mind, it almost fits… With any hope, the ending will be similar, as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-senor-presidente/260053.md?page=1)