# Goodbye, Straight Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899 "2018-08-20T02:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/241 "2018-08-22T10:49:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … > But the Republican position on lowering taxes, the Laffer Curve etc. have been party/conservative positions for decades. > > But the thing is that you’re acknowledging that the hypothetical guy “finally [saw] the light”, which amounts to repudiating his earlier positions, not the Republicans moving away from him. I’m not sure why you would insist that this is the opposite at the same time as you’re saying that. > > No one who couldn’t stomach the current conservative/Republican position on gay marriage or trans rights would have been a conservative at any time in history. > > Bottom line is if your position on issues is more-or-less aligned with the current liberal mainstream, then either you’ve changed your position on the issues or you were never a conservative, notwithstanding any claims to the contrary. > That’s something else. I alluded to this in my prior post. Being opposed to Trump - or any other individual Republican - is not the same thing as being aligned with liberal positions on the issues, and I think the prominent Never Trumpers would fit that category. Never Trumpers would not be accepted on this MB. (There are any number of conservatives on this MB who did not vote for Trump and who maintain conservative positions and are very much on the outs here, because no one confuses them with people “who used to be” conservatives. FTR, I voted Kasich as a write-in. :))I addressed this earlier. Well, I still disagree. When the Reagan administration saw that the tax cuts weren’t actually leading to lower deficits, they raised taxes. Then, GHW Bush raised them again. Then, the Republican legislature and Bill Clinton balanced the budget. The Republicans didn’t stop pretending to care about deficits until the GW Bush administration. Similarly, you could still argue about the effects of CO2 and climate change, probably until the '90s. Its wasn’t really a thing in the '80s. So, when the Republican Party went full climate-change-is-a-hoax later, a scientifically minded Republican may have thrown his hands up in disgust. Both parties were opposed to gay marriage until the 2000s, so if that was a key issue for you, when the Democrats went the other way, you could have joined them – your position didn’t change, the party did. Things have been learned since the '80s and progress has been made, on the economics front (trickle down was tried and failed), on the social front, and on the environmental front, at least. It looks like you’re arguing that, since the Republican Party is immune to facts and refuses to change (or, in the case of climate change, got even more anti-science), then someone who actually grows and learns would have moved to the Democratic Party. I guess that might be the case and may explain why institutes of higher learning are increasing Democratic. ETA: And, on the Trump side, the Republican party is now the party of Trump. They are doing nothing to hold him back, and are in fact enabling him. There’s no daylight between the party and the party’s leader anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/242 "2018-08-22T14:09:31Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Quick, post an Obama quote of your choosing so we can decide whether or not we got the good side of this trade. [Thanks Obama.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhY9Zxv1-oo) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/243 "2018-08-22T16:08:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > [Thanks Obama.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhY9Zxv1-oo) This guy really needs a third term. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/244 "2018-08-22T16:12:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This guy really needs a third term. Three terms for Obama: Illegal alien, Muslim, Socialist. Hey, that would have made a good bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/245 "2018-08-22T18:02:09Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Three terms for Obama: Illegal alien, Muslim, Socialist. > > Hey, that would have made a good bumper sticker. I can think of [several terms](https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/stupid?s=t) in response. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/246 "2018-08-22T18:05:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Anyone whose positions on current political issues are even somewhat aligned with the mainstream left/liberal/Democrats would not have been a conservative at any time within living memory. You are absolutely wrong here. I used to be one of those lock-step Reagan conservatives who towed the “Don’t tax the rich so much that they’ll leave the country and take our jobs with them” line. I used to believe in the values they espoused, such as honesty and accountability. Now the conservatives have turned their backs on those values. Not just that, they’ve completely destroyed them and pretend they still follow them. Conservatives used to be into looking at the heart of the matter and rejecting hyperbole. Now they’re nothing but lies and hyperbole, using fear and panic to scare voters to their side. They use the media to isolate and control their followers, much like the way they accuse liberals of doing. They see corruption and conspiracy because they practice it themselves and project that dystopia on ooh-so-scary liberals. Remember how conservatives used to tell us the Russians were the enemy? Now, despite the election meddling, Crimea-conquering, mafia mentality, and doing what us imperialist yanks used to do to control the Middle East, the Cons are apparently fine with that nowadays, because Trump leases out 35% of his Tower space to Russians. At least liberals (meaning anybody who isn’t right of center) are more partial to actual facts. Liberals also understand the changing world dynamic and see foreign parties as potential investors and new clients, not dangerous mud people who need to be kept away with a nationalist wall. They see a collapsing environment and envision ways to survive and eventually profit from non-traditional sources of energy, instead of greasing the gears for dinosaur industries to bypass regulations that are meant as safeguards, not poison daggers aimed at the rich. I didn’t leave the Conservatives. They left me. Liberalism is now the old conservatism. Liberals are now the moral backbone because Conservatives won’t practice what they preach. They’d rather shelter themselves with hypocrisy and “We get to commit bigamy, have abortions, and consume coke by the truckload, but don’t want anybody else to do it.” That’s how fucked our society has become because of ideologies based on lies and self-delusion. That’s why you make such asinine assumptions like the above. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/247 "2018-08-22T19:20:01Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Three terms for Obama: Illegal alien, Muslim, Socialist. > > Hey, that would have made a good bumper sticker. It might make a good ass-wipe. He is demonstrably none of those things, and even if he were a Muslim, so what? There are a couple of Muslims in Congress and I haven’t seen a bill yet to impose Sharia law. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/248 "2018-08-22T19:37:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Three terms for Obama: Illegal alien, Muslim, Socialist. > > Hey, that would have made a good bumper sticker. It’s complete bullshit, of course, but bumper-stickery is a medium that values pith over truth. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/249 "2018-08-22T20:14:24Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > …the “Don’t tax the rich so much that they’ll leave the country and take our jobs with them” line. I’ve always found that argument to be quite troubling, especially when it comes from the same folks who say “support our troops and honor their sacrifice.” It seems that they expect some people to love this country, to work, struggle, and sacrifice to keep it safe, and to give up their lives for it if necessary. But there are other people who can’t even be expected to give up a little bit of money; ask them to sacrifice for their country and they’ll go shopping for a better offer. I’d say “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.” The Republicans give them tax breaks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/250 "2018-08-22T20:41:16Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > But there are other people who can’t even be expected to give up a little bit of money; ask them to sacrifice for their country and they’ll go shopping for a better offer. Remember GHWB calling for energy conservation during the Persian Gulf crisis [while still sailing his speedboat?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/08/23/bush-save-gas-but-not-on-my-boat/978dbd3f-3a24-4548-8b23-41aa24863003/?utm_term=.c07ffb761643) > [@](#): > > “I’m going to keep using my boat,” Bush insisted. His presidential cigarette boat, “Fidelity,” consumes an estimated 25 gallons of fuel an hour, according to boating experts here. > > Bush speeds around the ocean on his boat at least once a day while on vacation at his Kennebunkport home. > > \*\*“I hope the rest of America will prudently recreate,” \*\*Bush added. "I don’t think we’ve reached the point where I want to call on everybody in the recreation industry to shut it down or everybody that’s taking a vacation in America to shut it down. > > “I would not suggest that the situation at home requires they stay at home now or that they don’t use their recreational facilities,” he added. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/251 "2018-08-22T21:39:47Z")
“Prudently recreate”, I remember! That line _totally_ caught fire, everybody was talking about it, but they thought he meant condoms. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/252 "2018-08-22T21:44:12Z")
> [@betterlifethroughchemistry](#): > > I understand, I first discovered Cecil in the pages of the now-defunct Baltimore City Papers back in the mid-80’s, rediscovered the SDMB in early 2000’s where I occasionally lurked around…didn’t join until 2012, and really only started participating in the last year or so…I could spend hours lost in certain threads as the discussions were very interesting, generally well reasoned, and informative… > > Lately, since the 2016 election, it just seems to be a lot of groupthink, yes, I know, **being a product of the Chicago Tribune means it has always leaned left** , but one of things I’ve always lamented in life is, we are losing the ability to engage in intelligent discourse…and I see it infecting the SDMB which is very discouraging…when we have to demean and shout down opinions we disagree with, we’ve lost the art of communication, we’ve given up trying to understand a different viewpoint, and we’ve shut down our minds…and, yes, I know, I’ll get the, “But, Trump started it!” response, whatever, two wrongs don’t make a right, please, try to express a view that is constructive, not reactive… > > Being a libertarian such as yourself, I find myself cringing at so many posts, I don’t know what to think anymore here, if you dare try to counter the groupthink, it’s pitchforks and torches, the SDMB was founded on the minds of many creative, intelligent and constructively critical people, so I hope it will survive and prosper… > > We are all entitled to our opinions, and if we can intelligently elucidate them, then we should be given the courtesy of a respectful response…we don’t have to agree, quite the contrary, but we should be able to indulge in intelligent discourse with the intention of understanding each others’ point of view… > > With all the talk recently if the SDMB financial issues, I actually thought about buying a membership, it’s no big deal, a fraction of my monthly wine budget, then I got sucked into a bad side discussion where it was obvious Ignorance was not being fought, it was being tickled with a feather duster, and I realized, why would I spend money on something where I have to think twice before I post as I don’t trust the respondents to have the same approach as I do, i.e., intelligent discourse, respect and a chance to understand one another… Emphasis mine. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I was going to say. The Trib was always the Republican paper vs the Democratic Sun-Times. Even if you look at the Wikipedia page, under “political alignment” it says “conservatism.” It may have become more centrist over the intervening years, but it’s a paper whose editorial pages and political endorsements still tend to be conservative. I mean, it endorsed Gary Johnson for president in 2016. It is _not_ a leftist publication. Yeah, I kinda "WTF?"ed when I read that. Not being a Chicagoan, I’m not familiar with the _Tribune_’s current editorial stance, but historically, it’s been a strongly Republican, conservative paper. Hell, it was owned and published by Robert McCormick, who was famously opposed to FDR, the New Deal, and American entry into World War II. _Time_ said of him that “…the _Tribune_ has been made into a worldwide symbol of reaction, isolation, and prejudice by a man capable of real hate.” I believe that, according to urban legend that might not be true, he forbade his reporters to use the word “evening”, saying it was a weasel word for “night”. Supposedly, he changed this policy when the society reporter described a society gala where a prominent socialite appeared in a fancy, flowing night gown. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/253 "2018-08-22T22:13:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Three terms for Obama: Illegal alien, Muslim, Socialist. > > Hey, that would have made a good bumper sticker. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > …He is demonstrably none of those things… I guess Poe’s Law - for the record I was mocking the baser elements on the right, not expressing a serious opinion about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/254 "2018-08-22T23:38:24Z")
Geez, even humor is lost these days. Thanks, Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/255 "2018-08-23T00:19:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Remember GHWB calling for energy conservation during the Persian Gulf crisis [while still sailing his speedboat?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1990/08/23/bush-save-gas-but-not-on-my-boat/978dbd3f-3a24-4548-8b23-41aa24863003/?utm_term=.c07ffb761643) Yeah, but that’s just plain old hypocrisy; having different standards and expectations for yourself than for everyone else. That’s common. I’m tempted to say that everybody in the universe does that, but that’s probably not completely true. What I was describing was an attitude that parts of society have different expectation on what they give to our joint safety and well being. Members of the military, who all too often have very little, are honored for giving the most precious things they have. Those who have a lot are expected to jump ship if some other country promises them more, and some politicians kowtow to them because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/256 "2018-08-23T00:59:09Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Geez, even humor is lost these days. Thanks, Obama. On refection, it wouldn’t surprise me if there were similar slogans tossed around in 2008 for Bush43, in 2000 for Clinton, even in 1988 for Reagan. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/257 "2018-08-23T02:26:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Take a break, it could help. Learn to laugh at the crazies - that will help more. > > Regards, > Shodan Well damn, it’s the crazies that make shit interesting 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/258 "2018-08-23T15:20:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I guess Poe’s Law - for the record I was mocking the baser elements on the right, not expressing a serious opinion about Obama. Impossible to tell the difference between parody and original stupidity these days. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/259 "2018-08-23T15:21:17Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Yeah, but that’s just plain old hypocrisy; having different standards and expectations for yourself than for everyone else. That’s common. I wouldn’t criticize my neighbor for a little hypocrisy, but I think it’s fair to hold the president of the country to a higher standard. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899/260 "2018-08-23T16:39:53Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Impossible to tell the difference between parody and original stupidity these days. 🙂 “There’s such a fine line between stupid and clever.” – Spinal Tap [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodbye-straight-dope/819899.md?page=14)