# "Goodfellas" Question: Running an "Independent" Crime Gang **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 27, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032 "2012-09-27T15:59:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/21 "2012-09-30T17:27:57Z")
I’m not much of a fan of the gangster movie genre as they tend to glamorize scum. Goodfellas, however, did a nice job of avoiding that cliche. Indeed, one of the arcs was to glamorize the lifestyle at the beginning and then through the course of the movie show the reality of the grubby, sad lives they had. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/22 "2012-09-30T21:57:52Z")
So, except for how he misinterprets the movie on five or six major plot points, the OP raises a valid question? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/23 "2012-09-30T22:09:06Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > The Chicago Outfit, arguably the single most powerful family of the Italian mafia had non-Italian made members. True story… My boss at my last job is dating a member of the Chicago Outfit. He’s married but she’s been his piece on the side for a few years now. If you Google his name, you get all kinds of fun info on him including his name on an org-chart of the Chicago Outfit put out by the FBI, as well as news articles about two different murders he was accused of (acquitted both times.) There’s also an old book (70s, I think) about the Chicago Outfit that has his picture in it. I’ve spent time with the guy a bunch of times, including hanging out at some old Chicago bars/restaurants that are definitely “connected.” He’s very nice, and soft-spoken, but if you piss him off he’ll stare daggers right through your soul. He doesn’t take kindly to cracks about Italians or organized crime (not me, but someone else made that mistake.) ---
**Author:** ![Ashley\_Pomeroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c68b51/32.png) [@Ashley\_Pomeroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashley_Pomeroy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/24 "2012-09-30T22:29:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Huh. He died on my birthday. (Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman were also killed on my birthday. And Gregory Peck, Medgar Evers, and Bill Blass, among others.) Can you explain why you have this compulsion to kill on your birthday? Is it something to do with confronting our own mortality - and aren’t you worried that the police might finally realise that it was you all along? I mean, the pattern is dead obvious. Anyway, who do you have lined up next? You’ve got eight months to pick someone. You weren’t responsible for [this](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/humpback-whale-trapped-on-bc-beach-dies/article4250870/), were you? Sorry about all the questions by the way. I’m not famous, so I’m probably not on your list. Good. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/25 "2012-10-01T00:35:28Z")
I am curious as to how come Hank and Jimmy escape punishment for Billy Batts death? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/26 "2012-10-01T02:15:32Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I am curious as to how come Hank and Jimmy escape punishment for Billy Batts death? I can’t say for certain how it all _really_ went down, but in the movie, it was only Tommy getting mouthy/violent to Batts, while Henry and Jimmy were respectful and trying to calm things down. As Big Pussy Bonpensiero told Christopher, “They know, but they _don’t_ know.” As such, I think they didn’t have enough to make a case against Henry and Jimmy, while Tommy’s getting clipped was, in the words of Henry Hill, “It was revenge for Billy Batts, and a lot of other things.” **Ike** , you’re a New Yorker from way back, right? What do you remember from back then? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/27 "2012-10-01T03:47:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > But some of the associated gangs were terrible (the “Westies”-an Irish east Side mob-NYC) handled the contract killings for Paul Castellano-they were true psychopaths. The Westies operated out of Hell’s Kitchen, which is on the West side of Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/28 "2012-10-01T05:18:40Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > The Westies operated out of Hell’s Kitchen, which is on the West side of Manhattan. So their name wasn’t a clever ploy to throw off the police? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_jeffrey_lebowski/32/215_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Jeffrey_Lebowski)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/29 "2012-10-01T06:56:10Z")
No, but it might have been a ploy to throw off **ralph124c**. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/30 "2012-10-01T07:39:23Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > This old flick was on yesterday-I watched some of it because I always enjoyed mob-type movies. at any rate, I understand that the movie version was pretty accurate..so I have a question: > the gang that Henry Hill belongs to is NOT a Mafia “Family”-it is an independent organization. In order to operate, it pays a percentage of its income to the local Mafia chapter. > But, as Hill finds out, it’s extremely difficult to avoid stepping on some “Made Member’s” toes- when his friend is invited to join the Mafia, they shoot him in the head (at the “coming out” ceremony.) > Was this how Henry’s cocaine distribution business got busted? Was he working on someone else’s territory? > I got the feeling that he was set up by the local Mafia-they told the police about the operation, and getting rid of Hill was obviously what they wanted. > In any case, Hill knew that he could never enlist in the regular Mob-you had to be 100% Sicilian to do so. Henry Hill was associated with the Lucchese family. Paul Cicero(played by Paul Sorvino) was in actuality Paul Vario, a lieutenant(or Capo if you prefer) for the Lucchese family. For those not aware, most of the people in the movie were given slightly different names than their real life counterparts. For example Jimmy Conway(played by Robert De Nero) was actually Jimmy Burke. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/31 "2012-10-01T13:54:43Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > If I may ask broader questions: > > How was the mafia well organized? > > You mention being a made man and the upper hierarchy. What advantages and obligations did being a made man bring? The advantage of being in the hierachy meant that everyone under you had to pay you part of their earnings. It is like multilevel marketing the more people under you the more you get paid for not working. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/32 "2012-10-01T14:09:21Z")
Goodfellas and The Sopranos nailed it. There are nuances so well nuanced that most people will never understand how right they got it. There are no set rules about some things, such as drugs. Drugs were an issue to some individuals, families, parts of families, etc. There’s a set of intangibles about certain things that prevent anyone from making absolute statements. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/33 "2012-10-01T14:45:24Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > So their name wasn’t a clever ploy to throw off the police? Actually that was a nickname given to then by the newspapers. IIRC, they always referred to themselves as either “Coonan’s crew” or “Hells Kitchen’s Irish Mob.” ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/34 "2012-10-01T14:50:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For those not aware, most of the people in the movie were given slightly different names than their real life counterparts. For example Jimmy Conway(played by Robert De Nero) was actually Jimmy Burke. I always assumed this was for artistic latitude; you didn’t have to worry so much about straying from the truth since the characters were nominally fictional. Was there any additional reason or was that it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/35 "2012-10-01T15:07:26Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I always assumed this was for artistic latitude; you didn’t have to worry so much about straying from the truth since the characters were nominally fictional. Was there any additional reason or was that it? Possibly to avoid getting sued. Also it allowed them to compress certain events. For example, Henry Hill never went on double dates with Tommy DeSimmone(Tommy DeVito in the movie). Those were with Paul Vario’s son or nephew(I can’t remember which). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/36 "2012-10-01T15:12:40Z")
I consider compression to fall under “Artistic latitude” (telling a better story) but didn’t know if there was a realistic chance of someone suing either for damages due to defamation or for part of the profits with their likeness being used. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/37 "2012-10-01T15:54:28Z")
Just have to add in my favorite bit of Goodfellas trivia. When Nicholas Pileggi was researching his book “Wiseguys,” which the film is based on, he conducted a lot of interviews with Henry Hill. With Pileggi at those interviews was Pileggi’s wife, the late Nora Ephron. Ephron took her own notes during the interviews and used them to write her own movie based on Hill - the Steve Martin/Rick Moranis mob/witness protection comedy My Blue Heaven. My Blue Heaven came out a month before Goodfellas, so you could accurately call Goodfellas a prequel of MBH. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/38 "2012-10-06T20:06:04Z")
Ok, I had no idea about the genesis of My Blue Heaven. I’m going to have to watch it again. And I’ll watch Goodfellas again, because I don’t seem to ever get tired of it. I may read Wiseguys again too. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/39 "2012-12-07T22:57:37Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You mention being a made man and the upper hierarchy. What advantages and obligations did being a made man bring? In the book _Donnie Brasco_, FBI Agent Joe Pistone (Johnny Depp’s character in the movie version) emphasizes that one of the advantages to being “made” was that you were allowed to be present when Mafioso discussed business involving other crews/families or otherwise referenced activities that the made guy was not directly involved in. Of course, this would have been of extra importance to an undercover agent such as Pistone/Brasco, as being made would have made him privy to much more information that he could provide to the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032/40 "2012-12-08T00:13:35Z")
With respect to the narcotics trade, isn’t it true that the old Mafiosi had no objection to selling drugs in Harlem and other black neighborhoods, but were vehemently opposed to selling them to whites? (IIRC, this was a point made in _The Godfather_.) If so, when did this change? The '70s? '80s? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goodfellas-question-running-an-independent-crime-gang/636032.md?page=3)