# Google Fires Author of Divisive Memo on Gender Differences **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055 "2017-08-08T03:12:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/401 "2018-01-13T22:30:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Even if Google itself wasn’t engaged in discriminatory acts, Google tolerated a corporate culture of harassment, intimidation, and discrimination. Damore alleges that they encouraged this quietly, not wanting to have it written down in company policies. That might be hard to prove, but the fact that Google is a very hostile workplace is hard to dispute. If that’s the case, they should suffer for it. But I don’t think it necessarily follows that this is why he was fired. In fact, if they only fired him after the media got wind of it, doesn’t that kind of refute the claim that he was fired because of discrimination? It seems he was fired because his actions, once made public, made him a liability to the company. I’m not sure that’s very ethical either, and I don’t know if that was wrongful termination or not. I don’t know employment law well enough to make that call. I don’t know Google’s argument in its own legal defense. This will be an interesting and educational case. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/402 "2018-01-13T23:33:14Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If that’s the case, they should suffer for it. But I don’t think it necessarily follows that this is why he was fired. In fact, if they only fired him after the media got wind of it, doesn’t that kind of refute the claim that he was fired because of discrimination? It seems he was fired because his actions, once made public, made him a liability to the company. I’m not sure that’s very ethical either, and I don’t know if that was wrongful termination or not. I don’t know employment law well enough to make that call. I don’t know Google’s argument in its own legal defense. This will be an interesting and educational case. He’s claiming a few different things in his law suit. He says he was fired for expressing his opinions on working conditions, against California law. Saying that he wasn’t fired for expressing those opinions rather he was fired because of hte public outrage generated by those opinions doesn’t strike me as a winning argument. He’s also claiming damages as a member of a discriminated class. Namely, being white and being a conservative/Trump supporter. Someone can correct me, but I don’t think he has to show specific damages that he incurred to win. He needs to show that the class is being illegally discriminated against. It’s pretty clear that both of those groups are discriminated against at Google, at least in certain situations. It will be interesting because neither, AFAIK, white male or conservative, have been successfully used in a company wide suit. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/403 "2018-01-14T02:10:07Z")
Thanks for the info. Not a subject I know much about, but I find this case fascinating for a number of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/404 "2018-01-14T02:28:40Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If that’s the case, they should suffer for it. But I don’t think it necessarily follows that this is why he was fired. In fact, if they only fired him after the media got wind of it, doesn’t that kind of refute the claim that he was fired because of discrimination? It seems he was fired because his actions, once made public, made him a liability to the company. I’m not sure that’s very ethical either, and I don’t know if that was wrongful termination or not. I don’t know employment law well enough to make that call. I don’t know Google’s argument in its own legal defense. This will be an interesting and educational case. It would be firing someone for their political views, which is illegal in California, or firing someone for advocating to improve their workplace, which is illegal federally. Plus he alleges a general culture of hostility to white males, which is illegal both under state and federal law. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/405 "2018-01-14T02:36:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > He’s claiming a few different things in his law suit. He says he was fired for expressing his opinions on working conditions, against California law. Saying that he wasn’t fired for expressing those opinions rather he was fired because of hte public outrage generated by those opinions doesn’t strike me as a winning argument. > > He’s also claiming damages as a member of a discriminated class. Namely, being white and being a conservative/Trump supporter. Someone can correct me, but I don’t think he has to show specific damages that he incurred to win. He needs to show that the class is being illegally discriminated against. > > It’s pretty clear that both of those groups are discriminated against at Google, at least in certain situations. It will be interesting because neither, AFAIK, white male or conservative, have been successfully used in a company wide suit. I’m pretty sure whites have been able to successfully sue in the past for discrimination. Here’s one rather famous case: > **[My Blog](https://employmentlawblog.info)** > > Employmentlawblog.info , Beragam permainan games slot , games poker dan togel online serta rahasia bermain nya agar mudah dapat meraih kemenangan terbesar The summary is that Lockheed Martin had a zero tolerance policy for racial slurs in company communications. White employees who spread racist emails were fired. Black employees who spread racist emails were given lesser punishments. White employees sued, white employees won. That case is similar to the Damore case in that Damore got fired for a memo that didn’t even advocate discrimination, while Kim Burchett continues to be in a management position despite expressly advocating discrimination. I found some more commentary about whites successfully suing here: > **[Top Lawyer: Can White People Sue For Race Discrimination? | Spitz, The...](https://www.calltherightattorney.com/blog/2014/09/top-wrongful-termination-lawyer-reply-can-white-people-sue-for-race-discrimination-in-ohio/)** > > Do I have to be Black to sue for race discrimination? Can I sue my job if my boss calls me “honky”, “cracker” and unfairly evaluates me because I’m White? Basically, a misperception people often have is that there are “protected” groups under the law. That actually isn’t true. The law must treat all groups equally. If a white person is subject to a hostile workplace or singled out for punishment, then he has a strong case. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/406 "2018-01-14T03:05:25Z")
Megan McCardle makes a good point that if Google was trying to avoid bad publicity, they did the worst possible thing: > [@](#): > > That was stupid, because Google has an immense amount to lose, even if a court ultimately vindicates its corporate culture. The company’s internal systems, featuring an immense array of internal employee communications, will be ripped open to scrutiny. If I were a Google executive, I wouldn’t want to bet that employees haven’t said much worse things in emails and on message boards than those featured in the lawsuit. Things that are plainly, inarguably, expensively illegal. > > But I also wouldn’t want even milder utterances to turn up as testimony in a lawsuit. Because every nasty comment and intemperate remark about Republicans or white males or conservative Christians is going to get broadcast to the public when this case goes to trial. And as you may have noticed, those folks are half the country. [https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-12/silicon-valley-will-pay-the-price-for-its-lefty-leanings](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-12/silicon-valley-will-pay-the-price-for-its-lefty-leanings) > [@](#): > > Perhaps even more importantly, conservatives vote. They elect legislators and public officials whose actions can deeply affect Google’s business. In general, Google has gotten much friendlier treatment from American regulators than from the EU or China. But American government is currently heavily dominated by Republicans who are unlikely to want to be nice to a powerful corporation whose internal communications suggest that it views advancing a progressive agenda, and bashing conservatives, as part of its corporate mission. 1 > > Google is not very vulnerable to the normal risks of a lawsuit: expense and internal disruption. The company is so rich that it can bear endless discovery and lawyer’s fees without really noticing. This may be giving executives a false sense of security as they contemplate defending this suit. I think she’s missing something even bigger here. In a company that appears to be full of Bernie Bros, how many comments are there going to be bashing “neoliberals”, “corporate Democrats”, Hillary Clinton, the DNC, etc.? Google could very well come ouf of this with both major political parties in a very bad mood. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/407 "2018-01-14T09:45:00Z")
Relevant article from the other side of the fence - > **[Ex-Google Employee's Memo Says Executives Shut Down Pro-Diversity Discussions](https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/01/ex-google-employees-memo-says-executives-shut-down-pro-diversity-discussions/)** > > A memo written by a former Google engineer claims that the company’s human resources department and a senior vice president... former Google guy claims he left because his pro-diversity message board postings were shut down. I don’t necessarily hold any brief for his claim that he was overburdened with fascist coworkers who made his workplace hostile - in fact, Google’s actions as described in the article sound pretty reasonable. It does start to sound though, like they have more than their fair share of obsessive prima donnas (of whatever political orientation) who simply can’t just let shit go when necessary. I’d sure hate to work in Google HR ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/408 "2018-01-14T16:59:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Basically, a misperception people often have is that there are “protected” groups under the law. That actually isn’t true. The law must treat all groups equally. If a white person is subject to a hostile workplace or singled out for punishment, then he has a strong case. Those are examples of individuals or small groups suing for direct harassment. I’m talking about a successful lawsuit with white people as a class suing a major company. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/409 "2018-01-14T20:04:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I read that whole section, by Geoffrey Miller (his part is 3 of 4) and he comes across like an idiot who doesn’t at all understand what “diversity” means in the workplace nor why it is desired. > > He focuses only on genetic possibility, while ignoring the real-world factors that influence a person’s development and opportunities which occur mostly because of a person’s perceived race and/or gender. > > Workplace diversity, AIUI, seeks to smooth over those possible differences, with the goal that people will someday be able to be judged independently of their perceived race and/or gender because at that time, they will no longer be factors in people’s development and opportunities. > > As such, his arguments and observations with regard to this memo are mostly stupid and worthless, IMO. Good for you. You picked out a piece you don’t agree with and let us know. Now, how about the rest? Or is it that research that doesn’t conform with your views is automatically ‘stupid and worthless’? Slee ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/410 "2020-05-10T06:21:16Z")
Updating this thread: > [@](#): > > A lawsuit that made a big bang in Silicon Valley two years ago with allegations of mistreatment of politically conservative tech workers came to a quiet end this week. > > Former Google engineer James Damore and three other men who worked for or applied for jobs at the Alphabet Inc. unit asked a court to dismiss their lawsuit. Their written request was joined by Google. > > A lawyer for the men, Harmeet Dhillon, said they’re prohibited as part of their agreement with Google from saying anything beyond what’s in Thursday’s court filing. Google declined to comment. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-09/ex-google-engineer-who-became-right-wing-hero-quietly-ends-suit](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-09/ex-google-engineer-who-became-right-wing-hero-quietly-ends-suit) To me this sounds like an out-of-court settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/411 "2020-05-11T20:29:34Z")
I also disagree with the firing and also suspect he knew he would be canned for posting it. The way I read it he was trying to start a frank discussion about Google’s sacred cows; the issues so sensitive it is taboo to oppose them in any way. And Google essentially confirmed his viewpoint by immediately firing him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055.md?page=20)