# Google Fires Author of Divisive Memo on Gender Differences **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055 "2017-08-08T03:12:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/61 "2017-08-08T16:34:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s laughable that it’s “fairly clearly correct on the merits”. There’s no reason to believe that all or most or even any significant portion of these disparities are driven by biology rather than culture and society. So it’s culture and not biology that we have 0 women in the NBA or NFL? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/62 "2017-08-08T16:36:26Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > I want to add that it’s not that he can’t/shouldn’t discuss diversity and efforts to hire women in the workplace. It’s that he did it in a way that was incredibly alienating and dismissive of his female coworkers. There’s an ocean of difference between “Google’s efforts to make diverse hires are hurting the company and result in us passing over better candidates,” and “Women aren’t as good in tech because of prenatal testosterone [citation needed].” But he never said what you quote. What he said was that men and women differ biologically on a population level and those differences may explain why they aren’t equally represented in tech. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/63 "2017-08-08T16:50:47Z")
tl;dr of the whole story: - Employee says that Google is too politically correct. - He is fired for being too politically incorrect. There are actually plenty of links and cites in his original post, which were left out of the Gizmodo version. Here’s the full PDF version of Damore’s memo: > **[Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf](https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf)** > > 159.02 KB ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/64 "2017-08-08T17:00:23Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But he never said what you quote. What he said was that men and women differ biologically on a population level and those differences may explain why they aren’t equally represented in tech. Then the onus is on him to provide the evidence a) supporting his assertion that biological differences are why women aren’t equally represented in tech and b) explain why these biological differences are more likely to be the cause than the prevailing thousands of years of cultural expectations that girls are bad at math. He did neither. Instead, he announced that hiring women was hurting the company because women weren’t the best candidates. That’s discriminatory. And then he took his discriminatory manifesto and posted it on his company’s intranet. You know - every sexist male for the last three thousand years of sexist Western Civilization will tell you that women are just not as biologically fit as men, mentally or physically. Continuing to repeat that in absence of scientific evidence is neither new nor interesting. Insisting, “But maybe it’s true!” is not the same thing as having actual evidence. Furthermore, pretending that hundreds of generations of institutional sexism have all evaporated and therefore, sexism is no longer a factor in women’s interest in technical fields is also counter-factual. There’s nothing diverse or interesting about this dude from Google or his argument. It’s the same unsupported sexist assertions we’ve been listening to for years. Claiming that testosterone affects a person’s interest in science and technology is not even a new argument. Neither is claiming that women lack something which makes them bad at science and tech. There’s no rational reason to give this guy the time of day. To hell with him and his “rational” “reasons” why hiring women is bad for Google. I’m sure his exit will do wonders for improving his work group’s team output. ---
**Author:** ![It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/it_s_not_rocket_surgery/32/312_2.png) [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/65 "2017-08-08T17:00:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The memo reads to me as both 1) fairly clearly correct on the merits (the reason for differences in gender representation in particular fields is probably due to well documented innate differences in interests and talents, and in an ideal world there would probably be fewer women computer scientists, engineers, politicians etc. than there are today), and 2) written in a fairly anodyne and polite fashion. > > Google was well within their rights to fire anyone they choose, but the fact that he was fired for it does indicate that a good part of what he was saying was correct: there are ideas that our economic, political and cultural elites don’t especially want to hear voiced. Holy crap. An ideal world would result in FEWER women in those fields? The US Senate has (an all-time high) 21 women senators right now; and you are saying that if the playing field was leveled, the number of women would be lower than that because women can only be interested in such things if they are told they should be by the media? And your second statement is just BS - how does him being fired for his manifesto validate it? Because of “ideas that our economic, political and cultural elites don’t especially want to hear voiced”? Got any cites, or anything at all, to back it up? Or is this just a case of “I personally agree with what he wrote, therefore firing him was wrong and proves that his ideas were right”? ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/66 "2017-08-08T17:09:28Z")
Published today on Gizmodo: [Men Have Always Used Science to Explain Why They’re Better Than Women](http://gizmodo.com/men-have-always-used-science-to-explain-why-theyre-bett-1797608461) I especially like the ending: > [@](#): > > As much as the Google employee’s anti-diversity letter reeks of centuries-old junk science, it’s important to emphasize that even today women, non-binary people, and people of color in STEM fields are still regularly confronted with bigoted attitudes wrapped in a guise of “biology.” All too often, these people fear being blacklisted within their industry if they speak out against workplace discrimination. > > Oddly enough, the same white men who dominate tech industry in numbers seem to have convinced themselves they’re the ones whose status in the workplace is being threatened. Ironically—as Damore’s manifesto and the subsequent fallout now illustrate—they may be their own worst enemy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/67 "2017-08-08T17:11:19Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Then the onus is on him to provide the evidence a) supporting his assertion that biological differences are why women aren’t equally represented in tech and b) explain why these biological differences are more likely to be the cause than the prevailing thousands of years of cultural expectations that girls are bad at math. > > He did neither. He has cites in his memo and I don’t believe he ever claimed biological differences are more powerful of a force than the culture expectations. > [@Merneith](#): > > Instead, he announced that hiring women was hurting the company because women weren’t the best candidates. > > That’s discriminatory. He didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/68 "2017-08-08T17:15:38Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > I disagree with the firing. While it would be appropriate to fire him if in fact he did behave badly toward female colleagues, this was not the case–instead he was fired just because he expressed an opinion. Of course he would be fired. High profile companies are perfectly justified in firing someone who present themselves as a representative of the company while behaving in an outrageous manner that reflects poorly on the company and it’s values. Also, I’m tired of every misogynist, racist, xenophobe and homophobe complaining about how their “Conservative opinions are being silenced”. There is not an equivalency of debate for hate speech thinly disguised as pseudo-scientific quasi-intellectual research. > [@octopus](#): > > So it’s culture and not biology that we have 0 women in the NBA or NFL? That’s not really the question we should be asking. The question is if there are women who can code as good as men, but aren’t being given the same opportunities. To my knowledge, there isn’t anything inherent to having additional muscle mass and a penis that makes someone better at coding Java or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/69 "2017-08-08T17:17:06Z")
Serious question for **iiandiii** and others who claim that gender differences in ability and behavior are all based on cultural conditioning. This guy cited academics in his (perhaps ill-advised) memo, who have written journal articles about gender differences in abilities, psychological traits, behavior, etc., and on how prenatal androgen exposure effects them. Should those academics be fired too? (Let’s assume tenure doesn’t exist and they can be fired at will). ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/70 "2017-08-08T17:20:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But he never said what you quote. What he said was that men and women differ biologically on a population level and those differences may explain why they aren’t equally represented in tech. I thought it was pretty clear that the quotes were liberal paraphrasing (I thought “[citation needed]” in the quotes should have made it clear), but he did state that “[differences between men and women] often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone” (quote exact except noted pronoun substitution) in a section of the report explaining non-bias causes of the gender gap. So there aren’t women in the tech sector because of prenatal testosterone. I stand by the paraphrase. If he had any empathy and tried to think about it from a female co-worker’s perspective, I think he would see how his section on no-bias reasons comes off as “women aren’t good as tech because they’re women,” but he completely dismisses empathy not just in minor points but as a major header in his screed, and he says Google needs less empathy. Which goes back to my second point on his understanding of tech/engineering. Even if you don’t think the paraphrase is fair, there other examples of how poorly he approaches the subject. The Personality Differences section in particular is really just a list of stereotypes justifying the dismissal of women in tech. “Women have more:” “Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as empathizing vs. systemizing).”\* […] “Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.” As previously mentioned, he dismisses empathy and doesn’t place value on it, so by characterizing women as empathic, he’s giving them a valueless characteristic. He also belittles their ability to handle stress and fails to consider that the higher anxiety may come from having to deal with inconsiderate jerks like him. Again, I want to go back to [citation needed] because the screed is filled with assertions about values across cultures, universal truths about gender roles, and sweeping assertions about female and male characteristics. All these assertions are made without evidence, reference, or background material. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/71 "2017-08-08T17:20:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Also, I’m tired of every misogynist, racist, xenophobe and homophobe complaining about how their “Conservative opinions are being silenced”. There is not an equivalency of debate for hate speech thinly disguised as pseudo-scientific quasi-intellectual research. This presumes that what you consider misogyny, racism, xenophobia, homophobia etc are actually factually or morally _wrong_: where’s your evidence for that? As for the other claim, you’re assuming what you need to prove, it’s the contention of those on my side that prenatal androgen exposure does in fact affect the distribution of things like mathematical skills. (I’m not sure if there’s a difference in mathematical ability overall between men and women, but there are definitely fewer women at both high and low extremes). ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/72 "2017-08-08T17:22:08Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > […]This guy cited academics in his (perhaps ill-advised) memo, […] Where are the citations? I don’t see any in the version I’m looking at. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/73 "2017-08-08T17:23:14Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > What would you consider strong evidence that differences between male and female trait distributions are biological rather than culture? Let me know what sort of evidence you’re looking for and then I can go ahead and see if I can find it. Knowing the genes for those behaviors and how exactly they’re effected by hormones. Or very easily quantifiable characteristics like physical strength and stamina. > [@](#): > > I would say that the fact that _within-gender_ differences in things like leadership ability, innovation, empathy etc. are linked to prenatal testosterone and estrogen exposure suggests that the same factors explain between-gender differences as well. Firstly, do you have a cite that this is widely accepted? Secondly, even if it is, why would prenatal hormone exposure necessarily have anything to do with gender differences for adults? > [@](#): > > Here are a few examples of cognitive and psychological traits linked to prenatal androgen exposure (they’re using the 2D:4D ratio as proxy for that). > > [Digit ratio - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio#Correlation_between_digit_ratio_and_traits) That sounds like “some scientists think this might be possible”, which sounds about one step past phrenology. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/74 "2017-08-08T17:24:09Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Again, I want to go back to [citation needed] because the screed is filled with assertions about values across cultures, universal truths about gender roles, and sweeping assertions about female and male characteristics. All these assertions are made without evidence, reference, or background material. He had a bunch of citations to articles in his memo, last I checked. Anyway, here’s an article to start on the link between androgen exposure and agreeableness within women. [Second to fourth digit ratio and the 'big five' personality factors - Northumbria Research Link](http://nrl.northumbria.ac.uk/20143/) My ethnic group has the second lowest science score (on the PISA) of any nation in the world, narrowly beating out Kyrgyzstan, by the way. Am I supposed to be offended if someone suggests that my ethnic group, in general, is not good at science? (I am a biologist btw, so it’s relevant in that sense). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/75 "2017-08-08T17:24:49Z")
I suspect he was fired because Google has been under legal and PR attack over these issues, and they need to bend over backwards to head off problems in this area. (Related to this, in reaction to these types of threats, companies tend to empower people with more progressive views within the company, which then comes into play in this type of situation.) As to propriety, you need to know what’s the appropriate use of the forum on which he posted it. But I have a strong suspicion that had a women posted something on those forums equally critical of Google but in the opposite direction - claiming that the company was not supportive enough of women etc. - that the reaction would have been very different. > [@HookerChemical](#): > > \*I work in engineering. The stereotypical engineering part of what I do (e.g. crunching numbers) is the entry level stuff. The high level stuff is communication, persuasion, and integration of the stereotypical engineering stuff. A graduate with a BS can come in and start crunching numbers, but it’s the Vice President who authors the policy papers and who testifies in court. The Google Guy completely dismisses the communication and empathy portion of the job in his diatribe. Code/equations is not the goal, code/equations is the tool. I think this may misunderstand his point. You can’t get to be the VP authoring policy papers etc. unless you’ve come up through the ranks and done the coding or number crunching. So any field which requires coding and number crunching at the entry level is going to deter entrants who are less talented or less interested in these areas, and as a result there will not be too many of those entrants at the senior levels either. Most or all fields are like that. To use my own (actuarial) field as an example, complex math/statistical skills are a lot less important relative to other qualities at higher levels of the field. But if you can’t or won’t cut it in math/stats you will never get to those higher levels to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/76 "2017-08-08T17:25:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Knowing the genes for those behaviors and how exactly they’re effected by hormones. > > Or very easily quantifiable characteristics like physical strength and stamina. > > Firstly, do you have a cite that this is widely accepted? Secondly, even if it is, why would prenatal hormone exposure necessarily have anything to do with gender differences for adults? > > That sounds like “some scientists think this might be possible”, which sounds about one step past phrenology. I assume this is a joke, but you’re aware that the prenatal environment (in general) matters _immensely_, in general, for the future course of your life, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/77 "2017-08-08T17:27:42Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He had a bunch of citations to articles in his memo, last I checked. Anyway, here’s an article to start on the link between androgen exposure and agreeableness within women. > > [Second to fourth digit ratio and the 'big five' personality factors - Northumbria Research Link](http://nrl.northumbria.ac.uk/20143/) > > My ethnic group has the second lowest science score (on the PISA) of any nation in the world, narrowly beating out Kyrgyzstan, by the way. Am I supposed to be offended if someone suggests that my ethnic group, in general, is not good at science? (I am a biologist btw, so it’s relevant in that sense). If they’re saying that test scores = genetics, then you should laugh at them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/78 "2017-08-08T17:29:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I assume this is a joke, but you’re aware that the prenatal environment (in general) matters _immensely_, in general, for the future course of your life, right? Of course. That doesn’t mean that every difference affects every adult characteristic. Does prenatal exposure to peanut butter affect adult sense of humor? Does prenatal exposure to bee sting venom (through the mother) affect adult desire for honey? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/79 "2017-08-08T17:34:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That’s not really the question we should be asking. The question is if there are women who can code as good as men, but aren’t being given the same opportunities. That’s one question. The other question we should be asking is if there are men who can code as good as women but aren’t being given the same opportunities. That may sound like a silly question in a field dominated by men, but it’s not. Because if the premise is true, then it’s possible that of the top 100 candidates/employees then about 80% (or whatever the number - this is illustrative) would be men based on ability and inclination. And if you start with the presumption that anything less than 45% female (or whatever) is evidence of bias, and start doing things to compensate and push the numbers into closer balance, then you’re discriminating against that 80% of men. It’s a lot like the issue with quotas aimed at keeping down the numbers of Jews in elite colleges back in the day, or Asians now. These groups were/are not underrepresented, but based on the natural non-biased course of events would have higher representation than they had/have, and it’s only discrimination that kept/keeps the numbers as low as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/80 "2017-08-08T17:36:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Nothing says respect for diversity of viewpoint like firing someone for expressing a different viewpoint. > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, bigotry against bigots is the worst type of bigotry of all! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055.md?page=5)