# Google Fires Author of Divisive Memo on Gender Differences **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 8, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055 "2017-08-08T03:12:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/81 "2017-08-08T17:38:37Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Then the onus is on him to provide the evidence a) supporting his assertion that biological differences are why women aren’t equally represented in tech and b) explain why these biological differences are more likely to be the cause than the prevailing thousands of years of cultural expectations that girls are bad at math. > > He did neither. > > Instead, he announced that hiring women was hurting the company because women weren’t the best candidates. > > That’s discriminatory. > > And then he took his discriminatory manifesto and posted it on his company’s intranet. > > You know - every sexist male for the last three thousand years of sexist Western Civilization will tell you that women are just not as biologically fit as men, mentally or physically. Continuing to repeat that in absence of scientific evidence is neither new nor interesting. Insisting, “But maybe it’s true!” is not the same thing as having actual evidence. Furthermore, pretending that hundreds of generations of institutional sexism have all evaporated and therefore, sexism is no longer a factor in women’s interest in technical fields is also counter-factual. > > There’s nothing diverse or interesting about this dude from Google or his argument. It’s the same unsupported sexist assertions we’ve been listening to for years. Claiming that testosterone affects a person’s interest in science and technology is not even a new argument. Neither is claiming that women lack something which makes them bad at science and tech. There’s no rational reason to give this guy the time of day. > > To hell with him and his “rational” “reasons” why hiring women is bad for Google. I’m sure his exit will do wonders for improving his work group’s team output. This person has a Phd in Biology. Everything he said was supported by the citations he included and is not particularly controversial to anyone with knowledge of the relevant science. If I was a business owner and an employee had knowledge from another discipline that a policy the business was pursuing was counterproductive, I would hope that they would feel free to share that knowledge. His argument was that people in Google do not feel free to share knowledge and opinions if they are politically incorrect. Silencing these heterodox opinions make groupthink more likely and groupthink is a recipe for bad decisions. One of the benefits of diversity is that having people with different backgrounds on the same team means different perspectives on a problem. By silencing people who think differently this benefit of diversity is foregone. There was a survey of people who work at Google and one third of the respondents strongly agreed with the essay. This firing says to those people that intellectual conformity is more important to the company than productivity. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/82 "2017-08-08T17:47:36Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I think this may misunderstand his point. > > You can’t get to be the VP authoring policy papers etc. unless you’ve come up through the ranks and done the coding or number crunching. So any field which requires coding and number crunching at the entry level is going to deter entrants who are less talented or less interested in these areas, and as a result there will not be too many of those entrants at the senior levels either. > > Most or all fields are like that. To use my own (actuarial) field as an example, complex math/statistical skills are a lot less important relative to other qualities at higher levels of the field. But if you can’t or won’t cut it in math/stats you will never get to those higher levels to begin with. His header literally says “De-emphasize empathy” and spends a paragraph stating why empathy is bad because being emotionally unengaged will help diversity. In other words, if we sit back and look at this with pure logic and reason without trying to understand why women and minorities leave tech, we’ll find the solution. We can dismiss those silly feelings when they complain that their co-workers call them a cunt to their face because the work they were given was similar to their peers. It doesn’t matter if they feel belittled by their boss calling them “sweetie” as long as their boss gives them a fair shake. If you drive out empathy or don’t work on developing it at lower levels, you won’t get the higher level people who can emphasize that the company needs. Somebody entering a field may only write fair code, but if they understand the user’s perspective and can design to that better than a peer with better code, that’s useful and needs to be retained while working on their coding ability. Similarly, that better coding peer should be getting work on empathy and seeing the user’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/83 "2017-08-08T17:50:23Z")
It is entertaining to me to see the right wing persons who are so ready to wave some flag of protecting women as the pretext for the prejudice against a religion, showing what the real attitude to the women and their postion in the workplace and the society is outside of the instrumentalization against the Other… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/84 "2017-08-08T17:52:58Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Sorry, but do you or do you not think that private companies should have the ability to choose who they fire, hire, and retain, or do you think that should be subject to governmental approval in all cases? > > Just trying to feel you out. Google can fire him if they want. “We value diversity of opinion, and fire people who disagree with us” is kind of stupid but I’m sure Google can withstand it, at least for a while. FWIW this is similar in a small way to many other corporate initiatives I have experienced over the years. “Give us your honest feedback” is usually either a waste of time, or counter-productive to the employee who actually responds honestly. Corporate wants to be told that they are great. Google wants to be told that diversity is a great idea. “There might be a biological component to average differences in outcomes” isn’t what they want to hear. Besides, the idea of saying, simultaneously, “co-operation is good, so we should hire more women, because women as a group are better at co-operation” and “it is a firing offense to say that women as a group are any different as a group from men as a group” is problematic. This guy is an engineer. I doubt he will have trouble finding another job. And Google will simply find another engineer who is better at keeping his head down and mouthing the right platitudes about political correctness. Google is, to some extent, pinning their hopes of continued corporate success on the notion that women and blacks is going to work better than hiring all white males and Asians. Maybe they’re right. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/85 "2017-08-08T17:54:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Google can fire him if they want. “We value diversity of opinion, and fire people who disagree with us” is kind of stupid but I’m sure Google can withstand it, at least for a while. > > FWIW this is similar in a small way to many other corporate initiatives I have experienced over the years. “Give us your honest feedback” is usually either a waste of time, or counter-productive to the employee who actually responds honestly. Corporate wants to be told that they are great. Google wants to be told that diversity is a great idea. “There might be a biological component to average differences in outcomes” isn’t what they want to hear. > > Besides, the idea of saying, simultaneously, “co-operation is good, so we should hire more women, because women as a group are better at co-operation” and “it is a firing offense to say that women as a group are any different as a group from men as a group” is problematic. > > This guy is an engineer. I doubt he will have trouble finding another job. And Google will simply find another engineer who is better at keeping his head down and mouthing the right platitudes about political correctness. > > Google is, to some extent, pinning their hopes of continued corporate success on the notion that women and blacks is going to work better than hiring all white males and Asians. Maybe they’re right. > > Regards, > Shodan There’s still tons of white men and Asians at Google. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/86 "2017-08-08T17:55:19Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He had a bunch of citations to articles in his memo, last I checked. Where are you reading it? If some linked citations got stripped out, that might lessen my criticism of it on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/87 "2017-08-08T18:02:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s still tons of white men and Asians at Google. And Google thinks that’s a problem. Because, apparently, the opinion that, on average, whites and Asians differ from women and blacks, is corporate policy. That women, on average, differ from whites and Asians, is an opinion that will get you fired. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/88 "2017-08-08T18:02:52Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > His header literally says “De-emphasize empathy” and spends a paragraph stating why empathy is bad because being emotionally unengaged will help diversity. In other words, if we sit back and look at this with pure logic and reason without trying to understand why women and minorities leave tech, we’ll find the solution. We can dismiss those silly feelings when they complain that their co-workers call them a cunt to their face because the work they were given was similar to their peers. It doesn’t matter if they feel belittled by their boss calling them “sweetie” as long as their boss gives them a fair shake. You’re misrepresenting what he said. > [@manifesto](#): > > **De-emphasize empathy.** [ul] > [li]I’ve heard several calls for increased empathy on diversity issues. While I strongly support trying to understand how and why people think the way they do, relying on affective empathy—feeling another’s pain—causes us to focus on anecdotes, favor individuals similar to us, and harbor other irrational and dangerous biases. Being emotionally unengaged helps us better reason about the facts.[/li][/ul] You’re conflating “empathy” with “trying to understand how and why people think the way they do”, which is a distinction he explicitly made in the very section you referred to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/89 "2017-08-08T18:06:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He had a bunch of citations to articles in his memo, last I checked. You should have checked a bit more thoroughly. He had a bunch of footnotes…but none of them were for actual citations. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/90 "2017-08-08T18:07:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Did I say that? Of course they’re not being ‘tricked and compelled’. They’re being culturally encouraged to become politicians by, e.g., mass media portrayals of women politicians in excess of their actual numbers, children’s books, schoolteachers and parents, etc… No one is tricking or compelling anyone here. I’m still not following. You said that in an “ideal world,” there would be fewer women in engineering and politics. I asked if women were being tricked or compelled to take jobs that they don’t want to do… and you said no while quoting my words. But then you go on to imply that women are being urged to take jobs that they don’t want? Can we dispense with the hair-splitting, please? Is your position is that a woman’s place in the workforce is not naturally in politics and engineering? Without this alleged pressure to take these jobs, what, pray tell, would women seek to do? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/91 "2017-08-08T18:07:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And Google thinks that’s a problem. Because, apparently, the opinion that, on average, whites and Asians differ from women and blacks, is corporate policy. That women, on average, differ from whites and Asians, is an opinion that will get you fired. > > Regards, > Shodan Do you know what can get you fired? Creating a public relations nightmare, that’s what. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/92 "2017-08-08T18:08:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And Google thinks that’s a problem. Because, apparently, the opinion that, on average, whites and Asians differ from women and blacks, is corporate policy. That women, on average, differ from whites and Asians, is an opinion that will get you fired. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t understand the last two sentences. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/93 "2017-08-08T18:08:37Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > Even if you don’t think the paraphrase is fair, there other examples of how poorly he approaches the subject. The Personality Differences section in particular is really just a list of stereotypes justifying the dismissal of women in tech. I don’t think they are just a list of stereotypes. They seem to be backed up by some sort of science. Of course, it’s still a open question as to whether that is nature or nurture, but on average the things he said appear to be true. This one has cites: > **[Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf](https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf)** > > 159.02 KB ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/94 "2017-08-08T18:11:56Z")
Let me throw a different perspective on this, one I know vicariously. Often it is hard for women to prove sexual discrimination (and I assume for a minority to prove racial discrimination) although if you look at their situation it is obvious there is discrimination. So let’s say that RandomCorp has fewer women in management, male managers spend time smoking cigars with other men (because women don’t smoke cigars he doesn’t offer them any), women being held to different standards than men in meeting, etc. Clear discrimination but try to prove it in court. Now an upper manager in RandomCorp writes this memo and doesn’t get fired. Legal should just start talking settlement to all the women that will sue. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/95 "2017-08-08T18:15:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they’re saying that test scores = genetics, then you should laugh at them. Test scores _within_ an ethnic group are certainly explainable largely based on genetic variation (that is to say, IQ seems to be about 50% heritable and about 20% based on prenatal variation). I know plenty of people of Polish descent who vary hugely in their academic achievement. If I meet two Polish-Americans, one a postdoctoral researcher in the sciences, the other who failed high school chemistry, I’m going to assume the difference is mostly due to either genetics or prenatal variation. I’m going to try to make an argument here by flatter your vanity: when you were debating black-white IQ gaps before you made an argument that I found failry convincing. You argued that _within African Americans_, African admixture doesn’t correlate with IQ. That is actually a good argument, and I think it pushes me (where I stand now) to believe that the African-American vs. White American test score gap is probably not due to genetics. (It says very little about whether the gap between eastern and western Germans, or Ashkenazi vs. Sephardic Jews, or between Chinese and Malays, or Americans and Tamils, is due to genetics or not). Congratulations, you are correct. The problem for you is you can use _exactly the same method_ to look at gender difference in abilities and there the result is quite different. When you look at women who vary in prenatal androgen exposure you find that _within women_, agreeableness is higher among more feminized women, spatial ability is lower, etc… For example, here’s a study (by three women) purporting to show that prenatal androgen exposure affects spatial ability. So I request, please consider applying the same methodology you have relied on elsewhere to this issue, even if it runs counter to your deepest values. Your values might after all be wrong. > **[Early Androgen Effects on Spatial and Mechanical Abilities: Evidence from...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3270350/)** > > There is considerable controversy about the origins of sex differences in cognitive abilities, particularly the male superiority in spatial abilities. We studied effects of early androgens on spatial and mechanical abilities in adolescents and young... Before you get to the actual body of the paper note the extensive citations, and note the tone of the article: they’re speaking as if they’re addressing something well accepted within the community. Now, academic consensus can be wrong and often is, especially outside the hard sciences, and psychology is a soft science at best. Still I think it’s clear that the idea that gender differences are largely biologically based does have a failry broad acceptance, at least among biologists and those psychologists who take a mostly biological approach to the brain. You are of course free to dismiss this as phrenology if you want. I find it convincing. And I hope you don’t call for the firing of these people. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/96 "2017-08-08T18:18:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m still not following. You said that in an “ideal world,” there would be fewer women in engineering and politics. I asked if women were being tricked or compelled to take jobs that they don’t want to do… and you said no while quoting my words. But then you go on to imply that women are being urged to take jobs that they don’t want? > > Can we dispense with the hair-splitting, please? Is your position is that a woman’s place in the workforce is not naturally in politics and engineering? Without this alleged pressure to take these jobs, what, pray tell, would women seek to do? I said they’re culturally pressured to go into fields like politics and engineering. Culturally pressured =/= tricked and compelled. I don’t know what ‘a woman’s place’ even means: women vary in their talents and abilities, as do men. I think in an ideal world where people’s career choice was based on their innate talents and interests there would probably be some women leaders and politicians, but fewer than in America today. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/97 "2017-08-08T18:21:15Z")
Google’s success in the next decades will be, in large part, a product of their ability to effectively use machine learning to solve more socially complex problems. That is partly an engineering challenge. But it’s also very much a psychological and sociological challenge. If your engineers are a bunch of first-rate coders who believe in phrenology, then you’re going to end up like those Chinese AI researchers who think they discovered that you can predict crime using facial recognition technology. You can try to screen for people whose relative gender and/or racial privilege influences their ability to think clearly about social issues, but another important and effective tactic is to hire people with a little more natural immunity to such myths, having been the subject of them for centuries. So I think quite apart from any other argument for diversity, Google has a really compelling argument for its particular business model. Knowing that you’re going to work with a walking MRA subreddit would probably not help their efforts in this area. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/98 "2017-08-08T18:30:30Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Test scores _within_ an ethnic group are certainly explainable largely based on genetic variation (that is to say, IQ seems to be about 50% heritable and about 20% based on prenatal variation). I know plenty of people of Polish descent who vary hugely in their academic achievement. If I meet two Polish-Americans, one a postdoctoral researcher in the sciences, the other who failed high school chemistry, I’m going to assume the difference is mostly due to either genetics or prenatal variation. > > I’m going to try to make an argument here by flatter your vanity: when you were debating black-white IQ gaps before you made an argument that I found failry convincing. You argued that _within African Americans_, African admixture doesn’t correlate with IQ. That is actually a good argument, and I think it pushes me (where I stand now) to believe that the African-American vs. White American test score gap is probably not due to genetics. (It says very little about whether the gap between eastern and western Germans, or Ashkenazi vs. Sephardic Jews, or between Chinese and Malays, or Americans and Tamils, is due to genetics or not). Congratulations, you are correct. > > The problem for you is you can use _exactly the same method_ to look at gender difference in abilities and there the result is quite different. When you look at women who vary in prenatal androgen exposure you find that _within women_, agreeableness is higher among more feminized women, spatial ability is lower, etc… For example, here’s a study (by three women) purporting to show that prenatal androgen exposure affects spatial ability. So I request, please consider applying the same methodology you have relied on elsewhere to this issue, even if it runs counter to your deepest values. Your values might after all be wrong. > > [Early Androgen Effects on Spatial and Mechanical Abilities: Evidence from Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3270350/) > > Before you get to the actual body of the paper note the extensive citations, and note the tone of the article: they’re speaking as if they’re addressing something well accepted within the community. Now, academic consensus can be wrong and often is, especially outside the hard sciences, and psychology is a soft science at best. Still I think it’s clear that the idea that gender differences are largely biologically based does have a failry broad acceptance, at least among biologists and those psychologists who take a mostly biological approach to the brain. > > You are of course free to dismiss this as phrenology if you want. I find it convincing. And I hope you don’t call for the firing of these people. I’m open to these possibilities. But with the very long history of pseudo science in support of racist or otherwise bigoted policies and practices and societal biases, I’m skeptical unless and until the level of evidence is very strong and widely accepted. I think it’s very possible there are intrinsic differences, on average, between women and men, in addition to size and strength or other superficial and easily quantifiable differences. But when someone suggests a difference is natural and intrinsic and it just so happens to both be extremely difficult to measure without talking culture into account and it just so happens to match some aspect of society that looks related to bias, like affinity for science or engineering, then I think it’s wise to be very skeptical and have a high bar for evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/99 "2017-08-08T18:33:11Z")
> [@HookerChemical](#): > > The stereotypical engineering part of what I do (e.g. crunching numbers) is the entry level stuff. The high level stuff is communication, persuasion, and integration of the stereotypical engineering stuff. A graduate with a BS can come in and start crunching numbers, but it’s the Vice President who authors the policy papers and who testifies in court. The Google Guy completely dismisses the communication and empathy portion of the job in his diatribe. Code/equations is not the goal, code/equations is the tool. How many vice presidents are there compared to junior engineers? Like many Silicon Valley companies, we have two “career tracks”, IC and M. M is management. IC stands for “individual contributor”. The hint is in the name. Some ICs may be quite high level, but in the end the majority of their productive output is individual. They need enough people skills to interact successfully with others. They don’t need to be masters of public speaking or persuasion or other high-level social skills. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055/100 "2017-08-08T18:36:08Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is entertaining to me to see the right wing persons who are so ready to wave some flag of protecting women as the pretext for the prejudice against a religion, showing what the real attitude to the women and their postion in the workplace and the society is outside of the instrumentalization against the Other… My belief that mass migration into European countries has very little to with Islam in general: I’d oppose mass migration of African Christians or Indian Hindus to Europe as well, and really I don’t even believe in open borders within Europe, because my main concern is to preserve distinct ethnic groups and to preserve the ethnic makeup of European nation-states. And my opposition to Islam is mostly theological rather than about gender per se. I would think Islam is wrong even if typical Muslim attitudes to women resermbled Reform Judaism more than Orthodox Judaism. That being said, I’m sure you understand the difference between saying “Women and men naturally differ in their talents and abilities and in an ideal world fewer women would probably go into politics”, and saying, to quote a rather famous Christian, that “no women should be permitted to hold authority over a man.” One is a statement about groups as a whole, the other’s a categorical statement forbidding any woman, anywhere, to hold position of authority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-fires-author-of-divisive-memo-on-gender-differences/793055.md?page=6)