# Google throws down the gauntlet on Chinese censorship **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743 "2010-01-13T02:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/41 "2010-01-13T23:35:04Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > That page is, quite simply, one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen on the Internet. It is a giant “NO” to those who would blinker the eyes, deafen the ears, and muzzle the mouths of their own citizens. It won’t last long - I’ve no doubt the PRC will block [google.cn](http://google.cn) quickly. But the sudden disappearance of a major search engine (not the most popular in china, I believe, but certainly widely used) will be noticed. And it’ll motivate more people, perhaps, to learn how bypass the Great Firewall of China. Do you honestly think that Chinese netizens don’t know how to get around net censorship? Give me a break. Everyone knows about Vtunnel and Freegate. The “Great Fire Wall” is a huge joke in China and everyone knows it. People gnashing their teeth about how the poor, poor Chinese can’t read pages about Falun Gong or the Dalai Lama never take into consideration the fact that the Chinese COULD read those pages if they cared enough to…they don’t read them because they don’t WANT to. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/42 "2010-01-13T23:39:35Z")
> [@Brandus](#): > > Disappointing. I come to this forum for intelligent posts, but people are seriously arguing Google should draw mean pictures of Chinese leaders on their home page. “People”? You’ve got exactly one poster making that suggestion. His suggestion has been, alternately, mocked, dismissed, and ignored. How do you turn that into “people are seriously arguing” that point? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/43 "2010-01-14T00:35:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > “People”? > > You’ve got exactly one poster making that suggestion. > His suggestion has been, alternately, mocked, dismissed, and ignored. > How do you turn that into “people are seriously arguing” that point? Him, Himself, and He. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/44 "2010-01-14T00:45:28Z")
Kidney has already nailed it. Not like Tiananmen is a secret. Millions of people experienced it prsonally. It is not difficult to get access if you want to. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/45 "2010-01-14T02:48:31Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Kidney has already nailed it. Not like Tiananmen is a secret. Millions of people experienced it prsonally. It is not difficult to get access if you want to. Indeed, CG. And the people who were old enough to remember Tiananmen aren’t even that old now: probably only in their late 40s/early 50s, so it’s not like they’re too feeble or senile to say anything about it. Or paralyzed by fear. It just didn’t mean much to them. The thing is that that incident, while a huge “human rights event” to Westerners, was merely a several-days-long blip on the radar of ordinary Chinese. When you’ve lived through a several-years-long Japanese invasion and occupation, a decade-long Cultural Revolution, and big changes occuring in your national leadership almost constantly, things like Tiananmen don’t really matter to you unless you were personally involved. I wish more people outside of China would realize this. I wasn’t in China then, but I’m sure the reaction to Tiananmen, in China and the West, was probably similar to the reaction to the Tibetan riots in 2008: in the West it was a huge big deal. In China it was, “Oh that’s too bad,” and then it was forgotten once it was over while it resonated further in the West. As for the GFW, there are entire forums on Sina, Tianya, and [Myspace.cn](http://Myspace.cn) devoted only to which proxies are the best and people use them and comment on them without fear of anything. This is something Chinese people have come to live with, but something that people outside of China don’t really get. That’s understandable on both sides, though. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/46 "2010-01-14T02:48:34Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Do you honestly think that Chinese netizens don’t know how to get around net censorship? Give me a break. Everyone knows about Vtunnel and Freegate. The “Great Fire Wall” is a huge joke in China and everyone knows it. > > People gnashing their teeth about how the poor, poor Chinese can’t read pages about Falun Gong or the Dalai Lama never take into consideration the fact that the Chinese COULD read those pages if they cared enough to…they don’t read them because they don’t WANT to. That sounds a lot like the people who said that Microsoft didn’t really abuse its monopoly since anyone who wanted Netscape could download it. True, but that doesn’t take into account the majority of the clueless. And in this case downloading Netscape wasn’t even violating the law ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/47 "2010-01-14T02:58:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That sounds a lot like the people who said that Microsoft didn’t really abuse its monopoly since anyone who wanted Netscape could download it. True, but that doesn’t take into account the majority of the clueless. And in this case downloading Netscape wasn’t even violating the law Apples and oranges. What I said is an accurate depiction of the experience of your common Chinese netizen. Believe me or don’t believe me, but I am right. The GFW really means nothing to a Chinese Internet user. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/48 "2010-01-14T04:03:00Z")
At first I sort of dismissed this issue - there’s more pressing things going on in haiti after all - but the more I think about it, the more I think this is really impressive. Has a foreign corporation EVER challenged a government’s repressive policy like this? Sure Google isn’t killing in China but it is still a noticable share of the pie, and it might disappear for very visible and very good reasons. If it does there is a chance that it could cause a major political sea change in the largest (iirc) country on the planet population-wise. Sure, the odds of all of this coming to pass are long-shot, but the fact that they are even on the board is kind of blowing me away. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/49 "2010-01-14T04:41:55Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > At first I sort of dismissed this issue - there’s more pressing things going on in haiti after all - but the more I think about it, the more I think this is really impressive. Has a foreign corporation EVER challenged a government’s repressive policy like this? Sure Google isn’t killing in China but it is still a noticable share of the pie, and it might disappear for very visible and very good reasons. If it does there is a chance that it could cause a major political sea change in the largest (iirc) country on the planet population-wise. Sure, the odds of all of this coming to pass are long-shot, but the fact that they are even on the board is kind of blowing me away. You guys are missing the fact that most Chinese wont even care if Google leaves China. Honestly, instead of starting riots and burning cars because they don’t have their Google, Chinese netizens will just go, “Oh, Google doesn’t work anymore? Ok, I’ll use Baidu instead!” (most Baidu rather than Google anyway) This isn’t the political issue that you guys think it is in China. ---
**Author:** ![Brandus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@Brandus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/50 "2010-01-14T14:47:17Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Has a foreign corporation EVER challenged a government’s repressive policy like this? Actually, Google did the same thing in South Korea. They defied a government mandate that everyone who uploads a file or video must use their real name, and Google refused to comply. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/51 "2010-01-14T17:59:16Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > As for the GFW, there are entire forums on Sina, Tianya, and [Myspace.cn](http://Myspace.cn) devoted only to which proxies are the best and people use them and comment on them without fear of anything. This is something Chinese people have come to live with, but something that people outside of China don’t really get. That’s understandable on both sides, though. Just to get some perspective via analogy as an admittedly completely ignorant non-Chinese person, is perhaps the situation with respect to getting around the Great Firewall within China similar to, say, the situation here in the U.S. (and presumably elsewhere) with respect to downloading “pirated” music/TV/etc.? I.e., technically illegal and thus ever-so-slightly inconvenient, but “pretty much everyone” (suitably interpreted) knows how to do it and does so anyway with zero practical fear of repercussion? ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/52 "2010-01-14T20:03:46Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > You guys are missing the fact that most Chinese wont even care if Google leaves China. Honestly, instead of starting riots and burning cars because they don’t have their Google, Chinese netizens will just go, “Oh, Google doesn’t work anymore? Ok, I’ll use Baidu instead!” (most Baidu rather than Google anyway) > > This isn’t the political issue that you guys think it is in China. Sure most people in China don’t care, but clearly SOME do as evidenced in [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/14/world/asia/14beijing.html?scp=1&sq=google%20china%20censorship&st=cse). I know the main thrust of the article agrees with your point, but it mentions some people (including a woman named Bing, ironically enough) in china showing their support to Google. If somehow their move gains some traction and causes some sort of social change there, I think that would be unprecedented in human history, no? [QUOTE=Brandus] Actually, Google did the same thing in South Korea. They defied a government mandate that everyone who uploads a file or video must use their real name, and Google refused to comply. [/QUOTE] I don’t think this would have quite the same impact as google attacking government censorship, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/53 "2010-01-14T20:43:55Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Apples and oranges. > > What I said is an accurate depiction of the experience of your common Chinese netizen. Believe me or don’t believe me, but I am right. The GFW really means nothing to a Chinese Internet user. And I assure you IE vs. Netscape meant nothing to the average American internet user. However, it seems that the real reason for this action is not just censorship, but that there was an attack on Gmail servers, coming from the government it is believed, to try to access the accounts of what I guess they consider dangerous subversives. Is the average Chinese user also happy with the government reading his mail? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/54 "2010-01-14T21:27:20Z")
Obvious war on terrorism analogy is obvious. Even in the US, there was considerable debate over whether it was justified, and China is a country with less of a historical background to appreciate libertarian arguments, and no facile Franklin quotes about liberty and security to sling around. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/55 "2010-01-14T22:11:56Z")
Google could influence China easily. Since their search algorithm is proprietary, they could secretly start decreasing the pagerank of any Chinese sites and start decreasing any international business any Chinese Internet-based companies get. That’s the only way I can think that Google could do anything to hurt the Chinese government significantly. Just leaving won’t be enough. They need a really big bargaining chip if they want to get China to let them have unfiltered search. (And what good is unfiltered search if you’re not supposed to be able to actually visit the censored site?) I guess they could also go subversive like those other companies you mentioned. Once outside of their jurisdiction, what could China do to Google if they started pushing funds to these subversive sites? (I’m guessing y’all can think of something, which is why I didn’t offer this as the number 1 strategy.) ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/56 "2010-01-15T00:10:52Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Just to get some perspective via analogy as an admittedly completely ignorant non-Chinese person, is perhaps the situation with respect to getting around the Great Firewall within China similar to, say, the situation here in the U.S. (and presumably elsewhere) with respect to downloading “pirated” music/TV/etc.? I.e., technically illegal and thus ever-so-slightly inconvenient, but “pretty much everyone” (suitably interpreted) knows how to do it and does so anyway with zero practical fear of repercussion? Pretty much, yes. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/57 "2010-01-15T00:12:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Is the average Chinese user also happy with the government reading his mail? I’m pretty sure he long ago accepted it as one of the potential costs of using the Internet in China. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/58 "2010-01-15T01:01:33Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > I’m pretty sure he long ago accepted it as one of the potential costs of using the Internet in China. So, the average Chinese internet user both goes to some effort to get around the firewall and is fine with the government reading his mail. That sounds just a tad inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/59 "2010-01-15T01:06:12Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Google could influence China easily. Since their search algorithm is proprietary, they could secretly start decreasing the pagerank of any Chinese sites and start decreasing any international business any Chinese Internet-based companies get. Excellent idea, except that they might suffer as the greedy capitalists object to not being to able wring another penny or two out of their prices. > [@](#): > > That’s the only way I can think that Google could do anything to hurt the Chinese government significantly. Just leaving won’t be enough. They need a really big bargaining chip if they want to get China to let them have unfiltered search. (And what good is unfiltered search if you’re not supposed to be able to actually visit the censored site?) No way. Clearly the government is scared to death of the free flow of information. > [@](#): > > I guess they could also go subversive like those other companies you mentioned. Once outside of their jurisdiction, what could China do to Google if they started pushing funds to these subversive sites? (I’m guessing y’all can think of something, which is why I didn’t offer this as the number 1 strategy.) I like this. I also would like them to hire some really good hackers to see if they can bring the government computer infrastructure crashing around on their murdering heads. It is pretty clear that they are attacking us already, nice to get them back. ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743/60 "2010-01-15T01:38:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, the average Chinese internet user both goes to some effort to get around the firewall and is fine with the government reading his mail. That sounds just a tad inconsistent. Of course it does. Nothing in China ever makes sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/google-throws-down-the-gauntlet-on-chinese-censorship/524743.md?page=4)