# GOP-controlled House passes measure to scuttle Obama regulation protecting streams from coal mining **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925 "2017-02-03T19:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/1 "2017-02-03T19:48:12Z")
Why in the world would they do this? If you’ve ever seen streams impacted by coal mines you’d know what a disaster it is. Is this supposed to create more jobs by easing regulations? If so, how? I suspect Trump bathed in these steams as a kid (and maybe still does) and likes the orange tinge it leaves on anything unfortunate enough to fall in. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/2 "2017-02-03T20:10:29Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Why in the world would they do this? If you’ve ever seen streams impacted by coal mines you’d know what a disaster it is. Is this supposed to create more jobs by easing regulations? If so, how? I suspect Trump bathed in these steams as a kid (and maybe still does) and likes the orange tinge it leaves on anything unfortunate enough to fall in. I think this is just the case of reversing all of these last minute regulations that Obama put in place during his final days in office. It’s not like this regulation has been in place and now we’re going to have all this new pollution because companies have less regulations to follow. This thing was just put in place less than one month ago. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/3 "2017-02-03T20:21:32Z")
Yes, when the Interior Department studied the impact of the rule before publication they predicted it would cost 7,000 coal mining jobs which is 8.5% of the total coal mining jobs in the country. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/4 "2017-02-03T20:43:01Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Why in the world would they do this? Why would you expect them to do anything else? This is a no-brainer for the House GOP: It’s a chance to screw over Obama AND make things easier for businesses, and the only cost is massive environmental damage. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/5 "2017-02-03T20:48:58Z")
I found this[episode of Planet Money](http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=510456884) that discussed this exact issue to be informative. > [@](#): > > VANEK SMITH: (Laughter) He told me that there are practical reasons why the system works this way because politicians are big picture people, they pass laws that give general direction, the gist of what the country should look like. It would take forever to write the kind of details that rules provide. > > SMITH: But rules have taken over D.C. for another reason, and that is because presidents can make rules all by themselves. > > KERWIN: Well, I mean, the one thing that rulemaking does afford the president is the ability to enact public policy without interacting with the Congress. > > SMITH: Rules don’t usually need to be approved by Congress. Congress gets to comment, and so does the public. But basically when it comes to rules, what the White House says goes. > > VANEK SMITH: That is how President Obama accomplished a lot of what he did. The Republicans controlled Congress, but Obama controlled the rules. > > SMITH: Says Obama has kind of gone to town with the rulemaking over the last few months. Since June, Obama has issued more than 60 rules, covering everything from drone certification to how Medicare covers certain tests to school lunches. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/6 "2017-02-03T21:05:22Z")
Of course they claim that eventually the coal companies will restore the place where the coal mine is located. Not much confidence on that. > **[Mountaintop removal mining](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal_mining)** > > Mountaintop removal mining (MTR), also known as mountaintop mining (MTM), is a form of surface mining at the summit or summit ridge of a mountain. Coal seams are extracted from a mountain by removing the land, or overburden, above the seams. This process is considered to be safer compared to underground mining because the coal seams are accessed from above instead of underground. In the United States, this method of coal mining is conducted in the Appalachian Mountains in the eastern United State... > [@](#): > > While some of the land is able to be turned into grassland which game animals can live in, the amount of grassland is minimal. The land does not retake the form it had before the MTR. As stated in the book Bringing Down the Mountains: “Some of the main problems associated with MTR include soil depletion, sedimentation, low success rate of tree regrowth, lack of successful revegetation, displacement of native wildlife, and burial of streams.”[43] The ecological benefits after MTR are far below the level of the original land. Well, yeah, I would think that burying streams is not quite protecting those streams. As for the jobs one would protect, there is evidence that automation and new machinery leads to less jobs regardless if the coal companies get what they want. > **[Impacts of Coal 101: Mountaintop Removal = Job Removal](http://appvoices.org/2011/01/21/impacts-of-coal-101-mountaintop-removal-job-removal/)** > > Or, How I Started Worrying when I Learned that Joe Manchin Doesn't Know What he is Talking About We will start today's post with a simple hypothesis. > [@](#): > > “Areas with especially heavy mining have the highest unemployment rates in the region; contrary to the common perception that mining contributes to overall employment.” > – Dr. Michael Hendryx, Mortality in Appalachian Coal Regions > > “History shows that the transition from deep to surface mining devastated the region economically, and that the prosperity of mining companies has not gone hand in hand with the economic welfare of coal mine workers….Central Appalachia has suffered from current and persistent economic distress, and that this distress “has been associated with employment in the mining industry, particularly coal mining. > – Synapse Energy Economics, Economic Impacts of Restricting Mountaintop/Valley Fill Coal Mining in Central Appalachia > > The increased use of mountaintop removal mining means that fewer miners are needed to meet company production goals. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/7 "2017-02-03T22:32:19Z")
> [@TheSeaOtter](#): > > Why would you expect them to do anything else? This is a no-brainer for the House GOP: It’s a chance to screw over Obama AND make things easier for businesses, and the only cost is massive environmental damage. This. And because they have no conscience or scruples and they want businesses to make money even if people get sick and die. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/8 "2017-02-03T23:03:34Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > Why in the world would they do this? If you’ve ever seen streams impacted by coal mines you’d know what a disaster it is. Is this supposed to create more jobs by easing regulations? If so, how? I suspect Trump bathed in these steams as a kid (and maybe still does) and likes the orange tinge it leaves on anything unfortunate enough to fall in. It may not create more jobs, but it would change the impact on some of them. As puddlegum mentions: > [@puddleglum](#): > > Yes, when the Interior Department studied the impact of the rule before publication they predicted it would cost 7,000 coal mining jobs which is 8.5% of the total coal mining jobs in the country. This isn’t actually accurate. [The real figure is 9.6%](https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=OSM-2015-0002-0194): > [@](#): > > As noted above, the Final Rule is expected to affect U.S. markets for coal, by increasing > the cost of coal production. This is expected to lead to both producer and consumer > surplus changes. The net change in market welfare expected to result from this rule is > estimated to be $78 million, annualized. This value is primarily associated with an > increase in the cost of coal production combined with cost-savings from reduced > transportation costs as utilities are expected to shift to nearer sources of coal under the > Final Rule. There is an additional cost of approximately $0.5 million, annualized, from > costs to state regulatory authorities associated with administering the rule. Note that this > measure of the economic impact of the Final Rule is not additive with the compliance > costs reported above. These are distinct measures of the expected impact of the Final > Rule. > > Forecast shifts in the geographic distribution of coal production, the manner in which coal > is produced (e.g., surface versus underground), and the total quantity of coal produced, > are expected to lead to changes in regional coal industry employment, even absent the > Final Rule. **For context, EIA’s Annual Coal Report estimates that 2014 coal industry > employment was approximately 75,000 employees. As shown in Exhibit ES-11D, coal > industry employment is projected to decrease by over 7,200 FTEs under baseline > conditions,** i.e., due to factors unrelated to the Final Rule, during the study period for the > analysis (my bold) The analysis does indicate there would also be an increase in jobs related to compliance aspects, but those would likely be at a higher skill set than the impacted jobs. Competing analysis from what appears to be industry pegs the job loss figures much higher but I think that should be taken with a grain of salt. Are those job numbers worth rolling back the rule that has not yet been fully implemented? I think that’s a policy question but it certainly is more nuanced than wanting to screw over Obama, cause massive environmental damage, trying to make people get sick and die, or other silly caricatures. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/9 "2017-02-03T23:07:46Z")
People where coal mining is done tended to vote for Trump. They knowingly voted for the candidate that they knew, or should have known, would allow their water to become polluted, and who promised to take away their access to health care for black lung disease. Eff 'em. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/10 "2017-02-03T23:28:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > People where coal mining is done tended to vote for Trump. > > They knowingly voted for the candidate that they knew, or should have known, would allow their water to become polluted, and who promised to take away their access to health care for black lung disease. > > Eff 'em. I get the impression as well that people in coal country care more about their jobs than about their environment. If this is really the case then I think eff 'en is a reasonable response. Democrats offer job retraining so they won’t be dependent on coal. Instead they just want to keep going back to he Republicans, Mr. Peabody and his coal. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/11 "2017-02-04T03:10:26Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This isn’t actually accurate. [The real figure is 9.6%](https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=OSM-2015-0002-0194): This is not accurate at all (nor was **puddleglum** ’s). You have completely misunderstood what you quoted. The figure that you quote is for the baseline scenario…i.e., how many jobs will disappear just due to the shrinking of the industry (or at least labor needed in the industry), independent of this rule change. The rule change itself is estimated to cost around 300 jobs (although with a large error bar…), which is less than 1/2 percent of the 75,000 that you quote. Here is the **relevant** quote: > [@](#): > > As shown inExhibit ES-11A, production-related reductions in annual employment demand are anticipated to vary from 3 to 511 jobs below baseline projections, while industry implementation annual employment demand increases are anticipated to vary from 240 to 309 jobs above baseline projections. The impacts of the rule are expected to vary regionally, related both directly to rule effects and indirectly to industry responses to the rule. Year to year variation in rule effects are a function of the model of overall coal demand. As shown, the overall scale of impacts is small relative to the size of the coal industry, varying less than one percent (between a 0.8 percent decline to a 0.5 percent increase) from anticipated baseline employment in the industry. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/12 "2017-02-04T03:20:18Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > This is not accurate at all (nor was **puddleglum** ’s). You have completely misunderstood what you quoted. The figure that you quote is for the baseline scenario…i.e., how many jobs will disappear just due to the shrinking of the industry (or at least labor needed in the industry), independent of this rule change. The rule change itself is estimated to cost around 300 jobs (although with a large error bar…), which is less than 1/2 percent of the 75,000 that you quote. Here is the **relevant** quote: Ack. You’re right, my bad. I should have read that more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/13 "2017-02-04T03:22:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > People where coal mining is done tended to vote for Drumpf. > > They knowingly voted for the candidate that they knew, or should have known, would allow their water to become polluted, and who promised to take away their access to health care for black lung disease. > > Eff 'em. NPR (I think it was On Point) had an interesting interview with a few coal miners in I believe West Virginia that had black lung. If I am remembering correctly, one person straight up said he’s fine having black lung as it is part of the job he accepted. Having a job and keeping a traditional job of his area alive was more important to him than his health. Assuming I am paraphrasing him correctly, I’m honestly unsure how to approach people who value their life so little. How can you value other people’s lives if you don’t even value your own above a specific job or tradition? ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/14 "2017-02-04T03:24:46Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I get the impression as well that people in coal country care more about their jobs than about their environment. If this is really the case then I think eff 'en is a reasonable response. Democrats offer job retraining so they won’t be dependent on coal. Instead they just want to keep going back to he Republicans, Mr. Peabody and his coal. I understand caring about your job. I understand wanting to provide for your family and the dignity that goes along with doing that through hard work. But when your job is literally killing you… really and truly actually killing you (and you have seen it kill your family members and you have seen it kill your neighbors) and you’re barely sharing in the profits from your death (someone _is_ getting rich, it isn’t you) - I don’t understand going for the side that says “we will kill you quicker, but you keep the same job” rather than the side that says “let’s find a less lethal job.” ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/15 "2017-02-04T03:36:26Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I understand caring about your job. I understand wanting to provide for your family and the dignity that goes along with doing that through hard work. > But when your job is literally killing you… really and truly actually killing you (and you have seen it kill your family members and you have seen it kill your neighbors) and you’re barely sharing in the profits from your death (someone _is_ getting rich, it isn’t you) - I don’t understand going for the side that says “we will kill you quicker, but you keep the same job” rather than the side that says “let’s find a less lethal job.” Perhaps it’s a case of “staying with what you know.” Maybe staring black lung in the face is easier for some than rolling the dice on a job that might be less lethal but might not provide as well for your family in the long run. Even then, I’d try rolling the dice. Yes I’d be gambling with the livelihood of my family, but I’d also be gambling that I’d be around longer to be with them in the ways they hopefully care about more given the normal social needs and responses of humans, particularly family members. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2017, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/16 "2017-02-04T03:43:13Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I understand caring about your job. I understand wanting to provide for your family and the dignity that goes along with doing that through hard work. > But when your job is literally killing you… really and truly actually killing you (and you have seen it kill your family members and you have seen it kill your neighbors) and you’re barely sharing in the profits from your death (someone _is_ getting rich, it isn’t you) - I don’t understand going for the side that says “we will kill you quicker, but you keep the same job” rather than the side that says “let’s find a less lethal job.” No liberals send the job off shores because they have no problem with Chinese people dying for their iPhones. Out of site, out of mind. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/17 "2017-02-06T19:45:07Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > No liberals send the job off shores because they have no problem with Chinese people dying for their iPhones. Out of site, out of mind. Lovely. Well, at least no conservatives are offshoring jobs. I mean, can you imagine President Butthurt Snoflake buying his steel and aluminum from China, or having his clothing line made in China, Bangladesh, Honduras, Vietnam, India, South Korea, and Mexico, or his furniture line made in China, hotel products made in China or Taiwan, or his vodka made in The Netherlands? Nah… Conservatives would never do _that!_ And _certainly_, not the Scamster-In-Chief! Oh, wait a minute… He does. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/18 "2017-02-06T22:12:10Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Perhaps it’s a case of “staying with what you know.” Maybe staring black lung in the face is easier for some than rolling the dice on a job that might be less lethal but might not provide as well for your family in the long run. Even then, I’d try rolling the dice. Yes I’d be gambling with the livelihood of my family, but I’d also be gambling that I’d be around longer to be with them in the ways they hopefully care about more given the normal social needs and responses of humans, particularly family members. They are conservative, “staying with what you know” is literally their lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/19 "2017-02-06T22:40:36Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > NPR (I think it was On Point) had an interesting interview with a few coal miners in I believe West Virginia that had black lung. If I am remembering correctly, one person straight up said he’s fine having black lung as it is part of the job he accepted. Having a job and keeping a traditional job of his area alive was more important to him than his health. > > Assuming I am paraphrasing him correctly, I’m honestly unsure how to approach people who value their life so little. How can you value other people’s lives if you don’t even value your own above a specific job or tradition? Well, then, having no health insurance is just another “tradition” that they can keep practicing. The problem of the first tradition is “solved” by the second tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925/20 "2017-02-06T22:42:00Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > No liberals send the job off shores because they have no problem with Chinese people dying for their iPhones. Out of site, out of mind. Lovely. Actually they do, or at least do so more than Conservatives. All movements towards international workers rights and environmentalism that I have seen have been very much on the liberal side of the American political spectrum. I welcome any cites that suggest otherwise. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-controlled-house-passes-measure-to-scuttle-obama-regulation-protecting-streams-from-coal-mining/778925.md?page=2)