# GOP establishment fears the monster they created... **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 4, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337 "2013-02-04T20:50:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/81 "2013-02-07T00:39:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Steve King is possibly the craziest non-Gohmert in Congress. What have the TP got against him? Farm subsidies? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/82 "2013-02-07T02:00:45Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Just like the GOP the Democratic party has a troublesome base. These people are the ones who vote in primaries and they have their pet issues like any other motivated political group. In 2007 their big issue was the Iraq war. Hillary had played it safe and been an enthusiastic war backer. Obama took a risk and mildly, with lots of wiggle room ashould it become necessary later, opposed the war. And that single issue cost Hillary the nomination. There was just so much anger against her in the base and so many people that just couldn’t support her because of Iraq. Obama was still a rank outsider going into the first Dem primary but when the numbers came out and the exit polling was done it was Iraq that sank her. After that her campaign gradually crumbled. I fail to see how any of that is “problematic”. For Hillary i guess. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/83 "2013-02-07T03:48:16Z")
Arabic-to-English translation of Benghazi: Ben = “Vince” Ghazi= “Foster” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/84 "2013-02-07T05:43:57Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Arabic-to-English translation of Benghazi: > > Ben = “Vince” > > Ghazi= “Foster” I read this and thought “No fuckin’ way!” Then realized this wasn’t the “amazing BS facts that are actually true” thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/85 "2013-02-07T16:01:50Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Just like the GOP the Democratic party has a troublesome base. These people are the ones who vote in primaries and they have their pet issues like any other motivated political group. In 2007 their big issue was the Iraq war. Hillary had played it safe and been an enthusiastic war backer. Obama took a risk and mildly, with lots of wiggle room ashould it become necessary later, opposed the war. And that single issue cost Hillary the nomination. There was just so much anger against her in the base and so many people that just couldn’t support her because of Iraq. Obama was still a rank outsider going into the first Dem primary but when the numbers came out and the exit polling was done it was Iraq that sank her. After that her campaign gradually crumbled. Though I agree the Iraq war stance was a strong differentiator between Clinton and Obama, I think it’s more likely Mrs. Clinton’s lost because the Obama campaign was far better organized–especially in the smaller states. After an early Iowa loss, Clinton won NH and seemed on her way. But then (1) she won a plurality in NV, but because Obama’s team understood the apportionment rules and campaigned according to them, he got more delegates than her, (2) she had no real campaign in SC–banking that SC was a less-important state for Dems and that she would have had momentum by then anyway–and (3) focused her Super Tuesday strategy exclusively on the largest states, which allowed Obama to rack up just as many delegates (and more total states) by tailoring his campaign. It was after this point that the race focused on individual primaries/caucuses, and because Clinton didn’t expect the race to go this far Obama’s advanced planning for these states (including an understanding of the often byzantine methods used for delegate apportionment) led him to rack up consecutive victories and steal the mantle of inevitability. It was only when Clinton decided to take these later primaries seriously that she was able to start winning again (she actually won more states in the final month than Obama), but by then it was too late. I’m pretty convinced that–had she run a better campaign–she would have cruised to the same kind of victory as Obama did, regardless of her Iraq war position. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/86 "2013-02-07T16:18:26Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Arabic-to-English translation of Benghazi: > > Ben = “Vince” > > Ghazi= “Foster” Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/87 "2013-02-07T17:34:33Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure, Hillary’s never been the presumed front runner for the Democratic nomination, only to be beaten by a young upstart. 😉 She isn’t on the wrong side of the issue that burned with Democrats the most like she was in 2007. She’s a repected elder ststesman and massively popular with the base. If she’d been against the war she would have walked the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/88 "2013-02-07T17:35:24Z")
Getting back to the original topic, [Politico](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/behind-the-curtain-gop-fox-political-purge-87293.html) has a piece today linking a “purge” of Tea Party favorites on Fox News with Rove’s new Conservative Victory Project: > [@](#): > > Ailes has aggressively, and shrewdly, toned things down post-election. Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly were among the first conservatives to call for a rethinking of the GOP’s opposition to comprehensive immigration reform. And then Palin and Morris got the boot, sending an unmistakable message about the new expectations for the channel’s contributors. > > This has coincided with the political efforts led by Rove, who took to Fox’s air Tuesday night to defend his campaign to beat back controversial conservatives such as King. On Fox, Rove said it’s crazy to think the GOP cannot do better than Todd Akin, the party’s Senate candidate in Missouri, and Richard Mourdock, his counterpart in Indiana, both of whom lost after blurting out their views about rape in the heat of the campaign. “We need to do better if we hope to take over” the Senate, Rove said. The article documents the expected arguments on both sides, but this paragraph buried deep on page 2 offered a new wrikle I hadn’t thought about before (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > But a senior Republican operative said the party has two huge, unresolved impediments to the top leaders’ grand plans: “suicide conservatives, who would rather lose elections than win seats with moderates,” and **the “many groups on the hard right that depend on direct mail fundraising that requires a high degree of audacity, and borderline shrillness.”** There is a cottage industry of selling outrage on the right, and “direct mail fundraising” is only the tip of the iceberg. Things like the [Obamacare Survival Guide](https://www.newsmaxstore.com/nm_mag/obamacare_911b.cfm?PROMO_CODE=10711-1) (just $19.99!) relentlessly hawked on Newsmax and the [are obvious, but more insidiously RW outrage aggregators like NewsMax and TownHall also [url=[Latest Posts](http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con)]lease out their mailing lists to third party marketers](]Patriot Depot[/url). They send the usual spam to subscribers but couch them in RW language–like the medical product which “Washington, the medical industry, and drug companies REFUSE to tell you about.” This mail-order industry has a long history and is pretty well-entrenched on the right, but otherwise it’s little different than the usual snake-oil cons that have been parting fools and their money for ages. The moderate leadership has tolerated it for decades because despite the fleecing it still brings the sheep to the polls. Now that they’re an embarassment they want to eliminate it–OK, but it won’t be that simple if there’s money involved. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/89 "2013-02-07T17:38:17Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Though I agree the Iraq war stance was a strong differentiator between Clinton and Obama, I think it’s more likely Mrs. Clinton’s lost because the Obama campaign was far better organized–especially in the smaller states. > > After an early Iowa loss, Clinton won NH and seemed on her way. But then (1) she won a plurality in NV, but because Obama’s team understood the apportionment rules and campaigned according to them, he got more delegates than her, (2) she had no real campaign in SC–banking that SC was a less-important state for Dems and that she would have had momentum by then anyway–and (3) focused her Super Tuesday strategy exclusively on the largest states, which allowed Obama to rack up just as many delegates (and more total states) by tailoring his campaign. It was after this point that the race focused on individual primaries/caucuses, and because Clinton didn’t expect the race to go this far Obama’s advanced planning for these states (including an understanding of the often byzantine methods used for delegate apportionment) led him to rack up consecutive victories and steal the mantle of inevitability. It was only when Clinton decided to take these later primaries seriously that she was able to start winning again (she actually won more states in the final month than Obama), but by then it was too late. > > I’m pretty convinced that–had she run a better campaign–she would have cruised to the same kind of victory as Obama did, regardless of her Iraq war position. This could well be true but had she not been on the wrong side of the Iraq argument (as far as the Dem base was concerned) then she could have run an even worse campaign and won easily. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/90 "2013-02-07T17:40:55Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Getting back to the original topic, [Politico](http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/behind-the-curtain-gop-fox-political-purge-87293.html) has a piece today linking a “purge” of Tea Party favorites on Fox News with Rove’s new Conservative Victory Project: > > The article documents the expected arguments on both sides, but this paragraph buried deep on page 2 offered a new wrikle I hadn’t thought about before (bolding mine): > > There is a cottage industry of selling outrage on the right, and “direct mail fundraising” is only the tip of the iceberg. Things like the [Obamacare Survival Guide](https://www.newsmaxstore.com/nm_mag/obamacare_911b.cfm?PROMO_CODE=10711-1) (just $19.99!) relentlessly hawked on Newsmax and the [Patriot Depot]([http://Patriot](http://Patriot) Depot) are obvious, but more insidiously RW outrage aggregators like NewsMax and TownHall also [lease out their mailing lists to third party marketers](http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con). They send the usual spam to subscribers but couch them in RW language–like the medical product which “Washington, the medical industry, and drug companies REFUSE to tell you about.” > > This mail-order industry has a long history and is pretty well-entrenched on the right, but otherwise it’s little different than the usual snake-oil cons that have been parting fools and their money for ages. The moderate leadership has tolerated it for decades because despite the fleecing it still brings the sheep to the polls. Now that they’re an embarassment they want to eliminate it–OK, but it won’t be that simple if there’s money involved. And this sets the stage for a massive civl war between the corporate wing of the party, people like Rove, and the nutjob wing who are not going to go down without a fight. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/91 "2013-02-07T18:07:48Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > And this sets the stage for a massive civl war between the corporate wing of the party, people like Rove, and the nutjob wing who are not going to go down without a fight. Shhh! “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.” – Napoleon Bonaparte ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/92 "2013-02-07T18:40:17Z")
_grabs popcorn_ ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/93 "2013-02-07T18:57:29Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > She isn’t on the wrong side of the issue that burned with Democrats the most like she was in 2007. She’s a repected elder ststesman and massively popular with the base. If she’d been against the war she would have walked the nomination. Very good point. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/94 "2013-02-07T20:20:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Very good point. Back in 2003-7 Bill Clinton was easily the bigger political figure of the two Clintons and he was truly hated by a huge section of the Democratic base for having backed Bush’s Iraq adventure. Voting for Obama was seen by a lot of Dems as a way of getting back at both the Clintons. Since then he made two spectacular convention speeches to help Obama and a bunch of campaign appearances, Iraq is forgotten and everyobdy loves him again. If he doesn’t cark it before 2016 that’s yet another huge weapon Hillary has. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/95 "2013-02-08T16:53:55Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Back in 2003-7 Bill Clinton was easily the bigger political figure of the two Clintons and he was truly hated by a huge section of the Democratic base for having backed Bush’s Iraq adventure. Voting for Obama was seen by a lot of Dems as a way of getting back at both the Clintons. Since then he made two spectacular convention speeches to help Obama and a bunch of campaign appearances, Iraq is forgotten and everyobdy loves him again. If he doesn’t cark it before 2016 that’s yet another huge weapon Hillary has. It’s hard to argue this since we’re talking about perceptions, but I think this is overblown. Certainly Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq war authorization in 2002, a vote which was embarassing for her in the 2008 campaign. But Bill Clinton in particular followed the precedent of other ex-presidents and refrained from anything more than token support for US policy in the run-up to the Iraq invasion, and in any event both Clintons (like the rest of the Dems) were quick to criticize once the political winds started blowing against the war in 2004-5. Given this, it’s hard to see why the base would especially single them out for their opprobrium; while there were surely some who hated Bill Clinton’s serial hypocrisy and the fact that he lobbed a few cruise missles into Iraq in 1998, I just don’t recall it gaining much traction outside of the liberal blogosphere. What I do remember are the [PUMAs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_United_Means_Action) and the Just Say No Deal coalition–clearly a base effort, even if it came a little late to save its candidate. It’s hard to see how these would have existed if a huge portion of the Dem base wanted to get back at Bill. I’m not saying it wasn’t a factor, but I’d credit Obama’s victory more to his campaign’s mastery of the process and the historic nature of his candidacy (this is what brought the superdelegates and the moneymen on-board) than to the base’s need for revenge against the Clintons. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/96 "2013-02-08T17:17:45Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > It’s hard to argue this since we’re talking about perceptions, but I think this is overblown. Agreed. I know, for me, the reason I opposed Hillary in the 2008 primaries was that the Clintons were deep in DLC crap, way too centrist for me, and her choice of campaign operatives only reinforced that for me (Mark Penn?! Terry McAuliffe?!). Of course, in the end, we got a president who’s pretty much completely what I expected Clinton to be anyway, so I figure, what the heck? Let’s back Hillary next time… ETA: And I’d say that the huge amount of Republican-policy triangulation Clinton did (welfare reform, in large part) helped to disaffect a lot of Democrats, far more than any lukewarm support for Bush’s Iraq Adventures did. Even given that, though, I still say that if the 22nd Amendment weren’t there, Clinton would have gotten at least a third term. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/97 "2013-02-08T17:41:16Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > What I do remember are the [PUMAs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_United_Means_Action) . . . N.B.: Some notable [PUMAs](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PUMA) were/are not what you’d call loyal Democrats, and even openly backed McCain in the 2008 general election. Don’t be so sure Hillary could count on their support in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/98 "2013-02-09T02:45:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And as a lawyer I advise all to be sure to confuse neither with “tortous,” i.e., conduct constituting a tort; a [tort](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort) being an actionable civil wrong, usually having nothing to do with pastry. Ooh, that would be a fun game of Anagrams! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/99 "2013-02-09T14:32:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Agreed. I know, for me, the reason I opposed Hillary in the 2008 primaries was that the Clintons were deep in DLC crap, way too centrist for me, and her choice of campaign operatives only reinforced that for me (Mark Penn?! Terry McAuliffe?!). > Of course, in the end, we got a president who’s pretty much completely what I expected Clinton to be anyway, so I figure, what the heck? Let’s back Hillary next time… > > ETA: And I’d say that the huge amount of Republican-policy triangulation Clinton did (welfare reform, in large part) helped to disaffect a lot of Democrats, far more than any lukewarm support for Bush’s Iraq Adventures did. Even given that, though, I still say that if the 22nd Amendment weren’t there, Clinton would have gotten at least a third term. Welfare reform? Penny-ante stuff. Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall into law. The 2008 economic debacle is DIRECTLY attributable to that supremely misguided bit of legislation. In any event, the problem the Dems will have in 2016 is base erosion. As the Republicans have moved ever to the right, the Democrats have been, as described, ruthlessly centrist, and as a result they’ve followed the Republicans into far-right territory, especially on economic issues. Wall Street owns the Democrats as thoroughly as they own the Republicans. This is gonna discourage a lot of Democrats, especially as Obama in his second term seems intent on becoming the Reagan Republican he always was. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337/100 "2013-02-09T14:51:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > N.B.: Some notable [PUMAs](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PUMA) were/are not what you’d call loyal Democrats, and even openly backed McCain in the 2008 general election. Don’t be so sure Hillary could count on their support in 2016. Yeah, the PUMAs were not really “base” - they were a faction who stood to benefit from a return to the Clinton Era policies, this time (they presumed) with a Dem Congress for the whole term, and in the Obama candidacy saw the Professional Left and the College Kids throwing away what should be their easy victory. In hindsight, of course, we know we got a centrist administration with some mild liberal splashes of flavor anyway all the same. In any case, the GOP proceeded to neutralize the PUMAs thoroughly by offering them Sarah Palin as a consolation prize. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-establishment-fears-the-monster-they-created/649337.md?page=6)