# GOP RIP: the price of progress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419 "2012-02-20T14:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/101 "2012-02-21T17:25:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Do you know where the “center” is? You sure? I know that I’m so far left that almost nothing anyone says seems too left-wing for my judgment (some things seem a little paranoid to me, but not necessarily incorrect, at least at first blush). But people who describe themselves as “centrist” seem like dangerous right-wing apologists to me, and then there’s the actual right-wing, who just seem like people who’ve lost their grip on reality. That’s why I place **John Mace** on the right half of the spectrum–at best, he obfuscates issues in order to make discussion tedious and difficult, otherwise contributing very little of substance. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/102 "2012-02-21T17:27:58Z")
Coming from someone who thinks the party that holds the House, Senate, and the majority of state legislatures is “dead”. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/103 "2012-02-21T17:29:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Coming from someone who thinks the party that holds the House, Senate, and the majority of state legislatures is “dead”. Did I say that? Read again, please. Slowly. And carefully. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/104 "2012-02-21T17:44:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Where’s the center, **John**? If we are all so left-leaning, there must be a center to compare us to, right? I’ve had pretty much the same views for forty years now, views that were very, very unpopular. Then. Not now. > > Do you know where the “center” is? You sure? I don’t know where the geographic center of the country is, but I know I live to the west of it. The center is a mathematical average. It does not mean that “we are all” left leaning, unless you’re using Lake Wobegon math. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/105 "2012-02-21T17:50:46Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Did I say that? Read again, please. > > Slowly. > > And carefully. Your thread title and the first half of your OP do. > [@](#): > > Not to declare the Republican Party dead prematurely, but we may be witnesses to the death of a major political party as such for the first time in a century and a half over the next few years. Anyway, your premise is silly. I don’t think there’s much question that the GOP will ultimately lose on the social issues of the day: abortion, gay marriage, and so on. It’s always ultimately lost in the past. That doesn’t mean it will “die”. It lost on the abortion issue in 1973, and continues to attract voters by playing on it nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/106 "2012-02-21T17:51:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Don’t diss geezers, puppy! We are many. We have a very long…ah, a very long…you know, that thing where you put something in your brain so you can get it later? Staple-gun. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/107 "2012-02-21T17:54:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Unfortunately, in my view, for millions around the world, suffering is not necessarily a bad thing in the catholic religion. Cilice you jest! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/108 "2012-02-21T17:57:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Where’s the center, **John**? If we are all so left-leaning, there must be a center to compare us to, right? I’ve had pretty much the same views for forty years now, views that were very, very unpopular. Then. Not now. > > Do you know where the “center” is? You sure? Put it this way: Which of [these groups](http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology/) is/are nearest the center? ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/109 "2012-02-21T17:58:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know where the geographic center of the country is, but I know I live to the west of it. > > The center is a mathematical average. It does not mean that “we are all” left leaning, unless you’re using Lake Wobegon math. The majority of the people can be left leaning if the center refers to the mathematical mean. How to quantify political beliefs is a lot more difficult, however. What the GOP needs is a fresh, motivated base of young people. I’ve heard of a candidate named Ron Paul who might fit this description. At the very least he will bring out his core values in an honest way, expose the hypocrisy of some of the GOPs stances, and modify them to appeal to young people. The GOP (Grandpa’s Old Party) is dying, but the Republican party is here to stay. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/110 "2012-02-21T17:59:01Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Age is a huge factor though. Diehard conservatives tend to be older, young people tend to be more liberal. By the 2020s millennials will be 30-40% of the electorate and most of the audience of talk radio, fox news and the tea party (where average age is mid 60s) will be dead. And then the political center-of-gravity in America will move significantly left, for the foreseeable-on-a-generational-timescale future. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/111 "2012-02-21T18:03:57Z")
Ron Paul has been exposing the hypocrisy of the GOP’s stances for 30 years. He’s never going to be anything more than a niche candidate. He’s like a Klansman arguing that blacks should distrust the federal government: correct, but you’d never vote for him because he’s right on a couple of issues. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/112 "2012-02-21T18:04:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know where the geographic center of the country is, but I know I live to the west of it. > > The center is a mathematical average. It does not mean that “we are all” left leaning, unless you’re using Lake Wobegon math. Excuse, please, but didn’t you say this: > [@](#): > > …This MB has its center of gravity solidly on the left of the political spectrum… Am I missing something here? If this MB is “solidly on the left” doesn’t that mean solidly left of center? But that center is a mathematical abstraction? It doesn’t really exist? Or what, exactly? Kinda looks like you are evading the question like a matador evades the horns with a graceful _veronica_, a swoop of the semantic cape, an poor ol’ dumbass **'luc** stands there blinking in confusion, outsmarted again! You can believe that if you like. I don’t mind being underestimated, kinda prefer it, actually. ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/113 "2012-02-21T18:18:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ron Paul has been exposing the hypocrisy of the GOP’s stances for 30 years. He’s never going to be anything more than a niche candidate. > > He’s like a Klansman arguing that blacks should distrust the federal government: correct, but you’d never vote for him because he’s right on a couple of issues. Yet I don’t ever recall him getting this kind of exposure on the national scene. In 2008 he was out relatively early. He is not a candidate that would win the general election. However, being within the confines of the GOP HAS caused Ron Paul to moderate some of his stances. This would not be the case in the general election and would inspire some epic debates and hopefully motivate a voter base to stand up for a new, inspired Republican Party. I would vote for Ron Paul because of his drug policy. Not much else matters to me since I view politics as mostly a popularity contest, and the masses have little idea what they are voting on besides voting for someone with a good smile and an attractive personality. I also know that there is an infinitesimally small chance that my vote would have an impact on the general election. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/114 "2012-02-21T19:00:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ron Paul has been exposing the hypocrisy of the GOP’s stances for 30 years. He’s never going to be anything more than a niche candidate. Do you think Ron Paul would win as a Democrat? Do you think Democrats have a more favorable view of Ron Paul than does the GOP? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/115 "2012-02-21T19:08:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Do you think Ron Paul would win as a Democrat? Do you think Democrats have a more favorable view of Ron Paul than does the GOP? Of course not, that’s another reason why he’s never going to be anything more than a niche candidate. What was your point? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/116 "2012-02-21T19:10:23Z")
> [@curioushat](#): > > What the GOP needs is a fresh, motivated base of young people. I’ve heard of a candidate named Ron Paul who might fit this description. 😕 Except for “fresh” and “young.” Not even **Rand** Paul fits. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/117 "2012-02-21T19:11:29Z")
> [@curioushat](#): > > I would vote for Ron Paul because of his drug policy. Not much else matters to me since I view politics as mostly a popularity contest, and the masses have little idea what they are voting on besides voting for someone with a good smile and an attractive personality. I also know that there is an infinitesimally small chance that my vote would have an impact on the general election. :rolleyes: Were you around in 2000? Your vote then, for Al Gore, might have kept us out of one fucking fiasco of a war. That ain’t no “popularity contest,” the results **matter.** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/118 "2012-02-21T19:18:46Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Do you think Ron Paul would win as a Democrat? Do you think Democrats have a more favorable view of Ron Paul than does the GOP? No, and no. He’s unpopular in the GOP in part because he’s too far to the _right_ on some issues, and his foreign policy ideas are no more palatable to Democratic voters than they are to Republican ones. We’re not opposed to _all_ overseas military actions any more than Republican voters are. Certainly Democratic voters aren’t going to look past a social and fiscal record we find abhorrent _all_ of the time because of a foreign policy record we like _some_ of the time. ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/119 "2012-02-21T19:18:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :rolleyes: Were you around in 2000? Your vote then, for Al Gore, might have kept us out of one fucking fiasco of a war. That ain’t no “popularity contest,” the results **matter.** I was in third grade and 8 years old, so I didn’t vote unfortunately. I mentioned that the likelihood of my vote having an actual impact on the election results is infinitesimally small. That is true. Even in Florida, where I am not from, one vote did not make the difference. 250 did. ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419/120 "2012-02-21T19:20:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Except for “fresh” and “young.” Not even **Rand** Paul fits. Fresh, young voter base not a fresh, young politician. Ron Paul is old, not fresh, and is retiring after this election cycle. His ideas are fresh in that they have not been seriously exposed to the masses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-rip-the-price-of-progress/613419.md?page=7)