# GOP still trending to win Senate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426 "2014-08-13T10:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1201 "2014-11-04T14:21:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Why even have a government if unthinking inaction is better or as good as reasoned action? You seem to be under the impression that “government” equals “passing new laws”. But there’s a lot more to government than that. You should read up about it sometime. > [@](#): > > Your position is, “Whatever, let it coast.” My position is, “Man the wheel and steer appropriately.” That you think yours is equally valid, is goofy. Truth is that I think my position is a lot more valid. I was just being nice about it. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1202 "2014-11-04T14:21:53Z")
Z.b., I would love to see a country without guns in the hands of everyone who wants one. I know that such is very unlikely to ever be implemented, so, what I believe, truly, is that we should try as best we can to make sure that people who shouldn’t have guns don’t have them. I think that is a very moderate belief. you, then, would take my belief and say that I’m lying, that what I really want is for government to seize your guns and throw you into jail. And, because you think that yelling that from the rooftops will get you votes, that is what you yell from the housetops. Insane rendering of another’s position just to get votes, or, perhaps, because your mind actually works that way, believing that people you don’t agree with are plotting to harm you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1203 "2014-11-04T14:22:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’ve demonstrated that here. Measure and Fear Itself, and iiandyii by inference, have demonstrated otherwise. Iiandyii even believes that Charlie Crist is a sincere Democrat, which is the funniest thing I’d ever heard before Measure said that Harry Reid was a man of integrity. Cite, again. I don’t believe anything you say, including about other Dopers’ positions, without a cite. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1204 "2014-11-04T14:22:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think that’s a bit much too. I’m not so naive to believe politicians just want what’s best for America, but I don’t think they are as bad some make out. Some of them are crooks, some are honest crusaders(otherwise known as “loons” by opponents and even some allies), and some even just like the cozy job and will do anything to keep it. Of course, no incumbent who loses today will be impoverished. Their friends will see to it that they are well taken care of for their past services if they have no ability to make money in the private sector based on their actual talent. I think you just agreed with me. Pols take care of their own, and they live privileged lives. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1205 "2014-11-04T14:25:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You should ask yourselves why Republicans can come right out and say they oppose these programs They don’t, always. McConnell talks about how much he loves Kynect. Other Republicans talk about the parts of the ACA that should stay. > [@](#): > > whereas Democrats can’t even bring themselves to say that they support ACA. But I guess when you can’t even say you’d support Obama, how can you say you would have supported ACA? Many are openly supporting the ACA and Obama. And for the others, I wish they were more honest, but I still support these liars over the alternatives. > [@](#): > > In a world where progressives were honest with themselves and others, failure to fully support the President you voted for should be disqualifying. No – we’re realists. Voting for these liars who will support Democratic policies is way, way better than the alternative. > [@](#): > > I’m sure none of you believe for an instant that any of these Democrats voted for Romney. But you put up with it, because “they have to say what they have to say.” We “put up with it” because electing them is better for America than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1206 "2014-11-04T14:26:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would anyone get heat for coming to the correct position? He did get heat from gay voters and supporters of gay marriage before he changed his position – but they still voted for him, because the alternative was much worse on gay issues. The votes I understand. But he didn’t get heat other than the perfunctory “you should change” official statements. Obama in 2008 was supported by the gay community and gay rights organizations wholeheartedly. > [@](#): > > Right – in many cases they’re lying. So what? Who denies it? I’d much, much rather vote for a liar who will support and advocate for the positions that I think are the right ones, than an honest man who opposes them. Santorum may be honest, but he’s wrong on nearly every issue (in addition to being a science-denying idiot) and would greatly weaken America were he in power. I’ve voted for liars too. The difference is that Democrats in red states make a living out of being liberal in DC and conservative back home. There are some exceptions, Evan Bayh was an honest moderate and Manchin might be more comfortable on the other side. Joe Lieberman was a good liberal but where he disagreed he was forthright. But all of the red state Dems up for reelection are Obama and Reid supporters and vote with them nearly all the time. I’ve never seen it this widespread before. > [@](#): > > I just told you how this Democrat, and many others, think about these things – and why we vote the way we do. Try to keep this in mind next time you feel compelled to delve into the psyche of Democratic voters. I said that Democrats don’t mind being lied to, and that much of it was entirely accurate. The other part, that Democratic voters believe themselves in on the secret, is only debunked by your admission that it’s not a secret. Which raises the question of why they do it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1207 "2014-11-04T14:29:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite, again. I don’t believe anything you say, including about other Dopers’ positions, without a cite. Read the thread. Just the last page or two. Geez. But seriously, you’re avoiding the crux of the issue, again, like a politician. Do you believe Reid to be a man of integrity? Do you believe the Democrats do what’s best for America? I know you believe Charlie Crist is a sincere Democrat, you argued that in the Florida governors’ race thread, much to my amusement. Your disbelief implies, well, disbelief that anyone could be crazy enough to say those things. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1208 "2014-11-04T14:29:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’ve demonstrated that here. Measure and Fear Itself, and iiandyii by inference, have demonstrated otherwise. Iiandyii even believes that Charlie Crist is a sincere Democrat, which is the funniest thing I’d ever heard before Measure said that Harry Reid was a man of integrity. I think it is perfectly clear from any rendering of the political landscape that there are two major branches of the Republican party. Christ was a Republican of one stripe, the current governor, of another. It is fair to say that Dems welcomed Christ and now consider him one of their own, because, put simply, he always had more in common with them than he had with the conservative wing of his former party. All over the South, party affiliation is more flexible that in other places. The same sincerely held positions today make one a Republican who once were sincere Democrats. Everyone knows that. Anyone in the South who wants well-funded public schools, job training, state involvement in lifting people out of poverty, etc., is now a Democrat. 70 years ago, Republicans could claim those virtues, but no longer can. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1209 "2014-11-04T14:32:16Z")
Let’s not forget, the conservative wing of the Republican party can not even lie about their support of women’s rights. They abandoned women, minorities and, even, men and women who work for minimum wages that are increasingly meager. They won’t get them back and their policies only create more of them. Sort of like invading a Muslim country and expecting not to generate more Al Queda than you kill. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1210 "2014-11-04T14:32:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The votes I understand. But he didn’t get heat other than the perfunctory “you should change” official statements. Obama in 2008 was supported by the gay community and gay rights organizations wholeheartedly. Because the alternative was so much worse – further, they believed that he would “evolve” – and he did. > [@](#): > > I’ve voted for liars too. The difference is that Democrats in red states make a living out of being liberal in DC and conservative back home. This is much, much better than being conservative in DC and back home. We’ll take the liberalism where we can get it. > [@](#): > > Joe Lieberman was a good liberal but where he disagreed he was forthright. LOL – no. > [@](#): > > But all of the red state Dems up for reelection are Obama and Reid supporters and vote with them nearly all the time. I’ve never seen it this widespread before. Virtually all of the Republicans vote against Obama and Reid nearly all the time. > [@](#): > > I said that Democrats don’t mind being lied to, and that much of it was entirely accurate. No it wasn’t. > [@](#): > > The other part, that Democratic voters believe themselves in on the secret, is only debunked by your admission that it’s not a secret. The Democratic party is not nearly this organized. > [@](#): > > Which raises the question of why they do it. Presumably (for the ones that do this), because they think it will help them win. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1211 "2014-11-04T14:35:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Read the thread. Just the last page or two. Geez. But seriously, you’re avoiding the crux of the issue, again, like a politician. Do you believe Reid to be a man of integrity? Do you believe the Democrats do what’s best for America? I know you believe Charlie Crist is a sincere Democrat, you argued that in the Florida governors’ race thread, much to my amusement. > > Your disbelief implies, well, disbelief that anyone could be crazy enough to say those things. yes, we do believe what you so casually besmirch. It is crazy to believe otherwise, that the 1% / 99% divide is healthy for any country. Do you think that the rich are actually concerned in any way about the suffering of the bottom 25%? Rich dems, some; rich Republican supporters, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1212 "2014-11-04T14:35:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Read the thread. Just the last page or two. Geez. I did. I can’t find the statements, so I assume you’re misunderstanding/misinterpreting something. Cite. > [@](#): > > But seriously, you’re avoiding the crux of the issue, again, like a politician. Do you believe Reid to be a man of integrity? As far as politicians go? A little bit. Not that I particularly care – I want effective politicians… honesty and integrity are pretty low on the list of what matters to me. > [@](#): > > Do you believe the Democrats do what’s best for America? In relation to the Republicans, yes. > [@](#): > > I know you believe Charlie Crist is a sincere Democrat, you argued that in the Florida governors’ race thread, much to my amusement. Cite, again. Not that I care who/what is a “sincere Democrat”… sincerity barely register on things that matter for who I choose to support. > [@](#): > > Your disbelief implies, well, disbelief that anyone could be crazy enough to say those things. No, it’s disbelief because you so often post things that turn out to be false. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1213 "2014-11-04T14:37:45Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Let’s not forget, the conservative wing of the Republican party can not even lie about their support of women’s rights. They abandoned women, minorities and, even, men and women who work for minimum wages that are increasingly meager. They won’t get them back and their policies only create more of them. Sort of like invading a Muslim country and expecting not to generate more Al Queda than you kill. THe conservative part of the GOP doesn’t lie about their position on womens’ rights, because they don’t need to. Enough women support their view on womens’ issues that they win elections. 2012 was an outlier, not the norm, as Democrats will find out when they pore over the exit poll data and find that the GOP lost the female vote by only a point or two. Democrats make womens’ rights 90% about their lady parts, and the other 10% is based on the assumption that women can’t negotiate their own pay without the government sitting in the room with them. Republicans’ issues with minorities is a much more difficult problem, but that has even less to do with their views and more to do with simply not asking them for their votes or explaining why they have the views they do. They pretty much allow Democrats to demonize the GOP uncontested in minority communities. And demonize the Democrats do. If the Democrats were so confident that minorities backed them because of what they stood FOR, they wouldn’t need to paint such an incredibly dark picture of the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1214 "2014-11-04T14:42:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If the Democrats were so confident that minorities backed them because of what they stood FOR, they wouldn’t need to paint such an incredibly dark picture of the GOP. Virtually all issues are framed in this way, because negative politics works. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1215 "2014-11-04T15:02:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – in many cases they’re lying. So what? Who denies it? In many cases, you. I use the pronoun in its indefinite sense. But in a discussion here, I assume that if I said, “Politician X supports position A,” I’d be asked for a cite, and I further assume I couldn’t say, “Well, they say they don’t, but they’re lying.” In other words, when we discuss policy positions as reasons to support or reject a candidate, rarely if ever do the Democratic advocates acknowledge what you just did. When can we rely on those lies, precisely? For example, as we discussed the ACA here, much was made of the President’s “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it.” Opponents of the ACA were reminded of this guarantee. At what point during that debate could I have said, “Well, he’s lying?” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1216 "2014-11-04T15:05:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Virtually all issues are framed in this way, because negative politics works. It works even better when it’s uncontested. But the sheer venom and darkness of Democratic appeals to minority communities is so extreme that they would never dare to try it elsewhere. IT’s good that the latest Democratic appeals to black voters are being highlighted. It won’t help with the minority vote, but at least it shows just how vitriolic the Democrats are when they think they can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1217 "2014-11-04T15:08:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In many cases, you. > > I use the pronoun in its indefinite sense. But in a discussion here, I assume that if I said, “Politician X supports position A,” I’d be asked for a cite, and I further assume I couldn’t say, “Well, they say they don’t, but they’re lying.” > > In other words, when we discuss policy positions as reasons to support or reject a candidate, rarely if ever do the Democratic advocates acknowledge what you just did. > > When can we rely on those lies, precisely? For example, as we discussed the ACA here, much was made of the President’s “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it.” Opponents of the ACA were reminded of this guarantee. > > At what point during that debate could I have said, “Well, he’s lying?” I wasnt here yet, but where I did debate that particular issue, about whether you could keep your insurance, I cited all kinds of studies showing that many would lose their health insurance and they were dismissed by supporters of ACA as what “might” happen. I just have to think a lot of Democratic supporters don’t mind carrying water for politicians when they bullshit the public. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1218 "2014-11-04T15:13:44Z")
I’m going to go vote for Charlie Crist now. Don’t say I never did anything for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1219 "2014-11-04T15:22:36Z")
_Egotist te absolvo_. Go, and sin somewhat less. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426/1220 "2014-11-04T16:01:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – in many cases they’re lying. So what? Who denies it? I’d much, much rather vote for a liar who will support and advocate for the positions that I think are the right ones, than an honest man who opposes them. I wouldn’t go so far as to say “so what”, but I generally agree with this. Where this comes to the fore is when, during election campaigns, high-minded commentors and politicians demand that we focus on “issues”, those issues being defined as carefully crafted policy positions that candidates have adopted for the purposes of these campaigns. For me, what others consider “dirt” is sometimes far more significant, as it’s a far better predictor of what the candidates will actually do once in office than whatever campaign jive they’re currently spouting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-still-trending-to-win-senate/695426.md?page=62)