# GOP TP wing seems to be doubling down on being even more extreme - Successful long term strategy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 1, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302 "2014-02-01T21:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/181 "2014-02-10T19:09:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Again, you are ignoring the science bit, or I should more appropriately, the bit about having evidence, human rights or logic on their side. In several of the examples mentioned there is a clear minority that opposes \*\*all \*\*change. Moderate positions that many Republicans agree (see the immigration example) should rule the day and compromises then should appear. > > The extremism that is there is not allowing for much of that to show up. Let me rephrase: So you are defining the term to apply to a group of people who hold a position that may enjoy up to 47% support, but for some reason you don’t think they should hold that position because there exists contrary evidence or logic, and/or the position goes against some form of human rights, and therefore they are extreme. Is that a fair representation? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/182 "2014-02-10T19:24:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > a position that may enjoy up to 47% support [Or it may be much less.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/01/28/what-shutdown-new-poll-shows-tea-party-support-remains-steady/) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/183 "2014-02-10T19:27:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Let me rephrase: > > So you are defining the term to apply to a group of people who hold a position that may enjoy up to 47% support, but for some reason you don’t think they should hold that position because there exists contrary evidence or logic, and/or the position goes against some form of human rights, and therefore they are extreme. > > Is that a fair representation? You keep ignoring some of the reasons, the polls show that there are extremists in all of those subjects, but they are (with many republicans telling you that it is the case) controlling the agenda of the whole 47% with a lot of artificial help (astroturf and extreme media). When one looks at the big picture there are even super majorities that would vote for \*\*compromises \*\*to make progress, but as it has to be repeated, the extremists from the Republican group are controlling the agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/184 "2014-02-10T19:30:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Or it may be much less.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/01/28/what-shutdown-new-poll-shows-tea-party-support-remains-steady/) Based on your assertion, a position can enjoy as high as 100% support and still be considered extreme. It’s not really necessary to quibble about the specific support of any particular position given your definition of the term extreme. Under your framework, anything can be labeled extreme. That is a nonsensical use of the English language, and the term becomes meaningless of course, which is the point I am making. GIGObuster’s example used 47% and I was using that when trying to clarify his position. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/185 "2014-02-10T19:35:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You keep ignoring some of the reasons, the polls show that there are extremists in all of those subjects, but they are (with many republicans telling you that it is the case) controlling the agenda of the whole 47% with a lot of artificial help (astroturf and extreme media). > > When one looks at the big picture there are even super majorities that would vote for \*\*compromises \*\*to make progress, but as it has to be repeated, the extremists from the Republican group are controlling the agenda. I admit I’m having trouble following your message. Grammatically it’s difficult to parse what you are trying to say. This is why I asked for a definition of the term in the way you are using it. Perhaps you could assist by completing the sentence: _An extreme position is one that \_\_\_\__ For example, I would do so as follows: _An extreme position is one that has less than 5% support in a given population at a given point in time._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/186 "2014-02-10T19:37:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Under your framework, anything can be labeled extreme. That is a nonsensical use of the English language No, it’s a nonsensical interpretation of what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/187 "2014-02-10T19:40:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s not at all the picture I get from the [Contract from America](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_from_America), which is nearest thing I’ve yet seen to a TP platform or manifesto (if you know of a more recent or more widely-endorsed one, please let me know). > > What part of that **isn’t** extreme?! You are making the assertion, what evidence do you have that supports your assertion? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/188 "2014-02-10T19:41:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You are making the assertion, what evidence do you have that supports your assertion? My assertion is simply that that **is** the (or a) TP platform. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/189 "2014-02-10T19:44:33Z")
Here’s the sequence: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The simple thoughtless gummint-bad nihilism we see from the faction dominating the GOP right now (enabled by feckless leadership from its putative adults) would still be extreme even if it were universally held. > [@Bone](#): > > Are you also asserting that a universally held position could be fairly labeled as extreme, at the point in time that position is held? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If there really were such a thing as universally held position, sure. > [@Bone](#): > > Based on your assertion, a position can enjoy as high as 100% support and still be considered extreme. > … > > Under your framework, anything can be labeled extreme. That is a nonsensical use of the English language, and the term becomes meaningless of course, which is the point I am making. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, it’s a nonsensical interpretation of what I said. How would you characterize your statement that a universally held position (100% support) can be labeled extreme in this context? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/190 "2014-02-10T19:45:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My assertion is simply that that **is** the (or a) TP platform. To clarify, were you not saying that those positions are extreme? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/191 "2014-02-10T20:00:50Z")
How about we eschew to actual word “extreme” and settle on “batshit”? Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/192 "2014-02-10T20:08:53Z")
I agree, “extreme” should be reserved for things that are actually extreme. Like weather, sports drinks, or my parents’ disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/193 "2014-02-10T20:27:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > To clarify, were you not saying that those positions are extreme? I hold that to be self-evident. Come on, now. **I** threw down the challenge, you **don’t** get to turn it around. What on that list is **not** extreme? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/194 "2014-02-10T20:43:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I hold that to be self-evident. Come on, now. **I** threw down the challenge, you **don’t** get to turn it around. What on that list is **not** extreme? First, define how you are using the term “extreme”. And I \*\*do \*\*get to turn it around. \*\*What \*\*with random \*\*bolding \*\*and actual questions! It’s like some weird gotcha game where you wont actually make an assertion, but expect others to refute…I’m not sure, something? To start, you have to make an assertion that something from that list is extreme. \*\*Debaser \*\*has already asserted that [none of it is extreme](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17080655&postcount=123). \*\*BobLibDem \*\*did not share your opinion that you hold to be self evident, and [defended each item as being extreme.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17080725&postcount=127) You introduced the topic, what’s \*\*your \*\*position on those items? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/195 "2014-02-10T21:46:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I admit I’m having trouble following your message. Grammatically it’s difficult to parse what you are trying to say. This is why I asked for a definition of the term in the way you are using it. Perhaps you could assist by completing the sentence: > > _An extreme position is one that \_\_\_\__ > > For example, I would do so as follows: _An extreme position is one that has less than 5% support in a given population at a given point in time._ Like the dictionary one: “An extreme position is one that it is furthest from the center or a given point; outermost.” And that is what I claim is the case on the examples made, the center does cover a good number of moderate republicans, but they are in practice emasculated. The ones outside the center and on the right are controlling the agenda now. At the risk of being too much of an optimist I would like to see more Republicans telling the Tea Party to eat it. A lot could be done by letting many items to be voted up and down after a group of republicans decide to support the speaker to allow compromises with the democrats, but as the immigration case shows, moderate republicans are scared to confront Rush Limbaugh and its peanut gallery. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/196 "2014-02-10T21:57:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Like the dictionary one: > > “An extreme position is one that it is furthest from the center or a given point; outermost.” > > And that is what I claim is the case on the examples made, the center does cover a good number of moderate republicans, but they are in practice emasculated. From your cite, the position that opposes gay marriage has 47% support. This is clearly not furthest from the center or on the outermost by any measure. Given your definition, opposition to gay marriage is far from extreme. But you’ve stated that opposition to gay marriage is an extremist position. How do you reconcile that? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/197 "2014-02-10T22:12:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > From your cite, the position that opposes gay marriage has 47% support. This is clearly not furthest from the center or on the outermost by any measure. Given your definition, opposition to gay marriage is far from extreme. But you’ve stated that opposition to gay marriage is an extremist position. How do you reconcile that? By looking at the polls more carefully, The 47% you insist on relying upon is not an absolute, a lot of nuanced positions can be there, many times people that appear opposed in reality would support things like civil unions for example. Looking at other polls lets look to the question of making homosexual relationships between consulting adults legal, the ones agreeing to it goes to 64% > **[LGBTQ+ Rights](https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx)** > > Do you think gay or lesbian relations between consenting adults should or should not be legal? As you may know, there has been considerable discussion in the news regarding the rights of homosexual men and women. In general, do you think homosexuals... The reality is that with Democratic support a lot of simple changes could be voted at the federal level to support gay rights, as we see the hung up is coming from an elected group that does not even agree with a lot of their constituents. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/198 "2014-02-10T22:25:27Z")
I’m not addressing the issue of gay marriage at all here. I’m using that as an example because that is the one you’ve brought up. So then given your follow up, I ask the same question, from your cite the position that opposes making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal has 31% support. This is clearly not furthest from the center or on the outermost by any measure. Given your definition, opposition to making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal is far from extreme. Are you asserting that the position that opposes making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal is an extremist position? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/199 "2014-02-10T22:34:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m not addressing the issue of gay marriage at all here. I’m using that as an example because that is the one you’ve brought up. It is not the only one, but it seems that the other points stand then. > [@Bone](#): > > So then given your follow up, I ask the same question, from your cite the position that opposes making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal has 31% support. This is clearly not furthest from the center or on the outermost by any measure. That sounds more like grasping at straws. > [@Bone](#): > > Given your definition, opposition to making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal is far from extreme. Not really, what I see is that most people are tolerant, only the ones that are at the extreme continue on insisting on putting their bigotry into the law. > [@Bone](#): > > Are you asserting that the position that opposes making homosexual relationships between consenting adults legal is an extremist position? Yes, in large part because it is only a minority position that still has power. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302/200 "2014-02-10T23:13:27Z")
When talking about what is or isn’t extreme, I find that there are many things that enjoy less than 31% that wouldn’t be considered furthest from the center or outermost. My point is, there are actual extreme positions, flat earthers for example, NAMBLA, Quakers, etc. All of these enjoy very small minority support. Grouping positions that enjoy \> 30% support with the others above that are really fringe positions renders the term “extreme” meaningless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-tp-wing-seems-to-be-doubling-down-on-being-even-more-extreme-successful-long-term-strategy/680302.md?page=11)