# GOP welcoming moderates now. This strategy work for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423 "2009-05-05T15:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/81 "2009-05-05T23:01:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Republicans are screwed, and it’s not just their message. The problem they have is that the Democrats are building a huge coalition of interests who are becoming increasingly dependent on government and Democratic policies for their well-being. > > When half the population pays no tax, it’s hard to win an election by promising to cut taxes. > > When half the population receives government benefits, it’s hard to win an election by promising to cut government benefits. > > When 80% of the population relies on the government for education funding, for health care, and other services, it’s hard to win an election by promising to cut services. > > That is, it’s hard to do until these programs lead to a train wreck (if they do). Since significantly less than half the population pays no tax (indeed, almost no one pays NO tax, since we tax goods and services :rolleyes:), then we aren’t anywhere near this scenario. Since no where near half the population receives government benefits, unless you include all possible governmental benefits, in which case EVERYONE receives them, we are not anywhere near to this scenario. As for governmental services, EVERYONE in the US relies upon governmental services. However, no where near 80% of people receive direct funding to pay for such services, and please note that it’s the Republicans that want to put money in your pocket to send your child to the school of your “choice,” not the Democrats. So your posts is total bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/82 "2009-05-05T23:05:43Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > You Democrats should be feeling really good about your position right now, because you believe these programs will work. You believe the stimulus will cause the economy to recover. You believe that new spending on education will lead to better outcomes. You believe that public health care will lead to longer life expectancy and better health services. You believe that stronger unions and more regulations on business will lead to a healthier economy and a richer middle class. > > If you’re right, Republicans are truly screwed unless they support those programs, in which case they cease to be Republicans. Says who? Is there some kind of **Sam Stone** Rule that a political party loses its identity whenever it modifies its platform? By that reasoning, Republicans ceased to be Republicans when they stopped opposing racial integration. (And before that, by the same logic, Democrats ceased to be Democrats when **they** stopped opposing racial integration.) You don’t need to sit around with your fingers crossed for a massive social and economic breakdown in the US under the Obama administration in order to retain hope for the survival of the Republican Party. There will always be enough ideological disagreements and clashing of interests to keep at least two political parties going in the US, even if their positions on certain issues end up converging (e.g., racial integration and Medicare in the past, equal rights for gays and universal health insurance in the future). ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/83 "2009-05-05T23:10:39Z")
The Republicans opposed Social Security in the 1930s. It turned out to be a successful government program and the GOP learned to live with it and support it. Bush’s attempt to privatize it failed to gain support in his own party. If Obama’s new social programs work, the Republicans will evolve to support them in order to stay alive as they did with SSI. I don’t think the party ceased to be Republican, the modern GOP still looks as much like the GOP of 1920 as any political party can after ninety years. Thatcher altered the NHS but it still left it in existence and the Conservative party has accepted the existence of the welfare state since 1951. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/84 "2009-05-05T23:13:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Says who? Is there some kind of **Sam Stone** Rule that a political party loses its identity whenever it modifies its platform? By that reasoning, Republicans ceased to be Republicans when they stopped opposing racial integration. Republicans stopped opposing racial integration? Oooooooooooh, you mean legislatively. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/85 "2009-05-05T23:17:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You don’t need to sit around with your fingers crossed for a massive social and economic breakdown in the US under the Obama administration in order to retain hope for the survival of the Republican Party. There will always be enough ideological disagreements and clashing of interests to keep at least two political parties going in the US, even if their positions on certain issues end up converging (e.g., racial integration and Medicare in the past, equal rights for gays and universal health insurance in the future). But see, that’s the issue right there. Republicans (at least the party leaders and mouthpieces) believe the ONLY way the Republicans can recover is to destroy the Democrats. It’s worked in the past with Clinton, why not now? And anyway, it saves them from having to actually come up with ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/86 "2009-05-05T23:25:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Where is this alternate universe USA where half the population doesn’t pay taxes and is dependent on the government? Is there a portal or something I can use to get there? You don’t wanna go; they all have the Mirror Universe Evil Goatee, even the women. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/87 "2009-05-05T23:26:33Z")
**Sam** that was a fairly silly amount of hyperbole in your two-part post and if the GOP does not change and the Dems just do a better job then Bush over the next 8 years, it could mean the beginning of the end. The Republicans have somehow narrowed their focus more and more. This is not a matter of the Dems ruling forever, this is a matter of the Republicans heading down a path, they can still in theory pull back from but show no signs of doing so. The Tax statement applies more to the very rich than any but the poorest. That was a Republican effort and not Dem. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/88 "2009-05-06T00:57:58Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > The Republicans opposed Social Security in the 1930s. It turned out to be a successful government program It’s not correct to call SS a “successful” program until the people born right after it was implemented (baby boomers) have gone through their entire life cycles. The government’s own trustees project that Social Security & Medicare will be insolvent without major reform. This is the definition of “successful”? When the demographics play out (the USA’s aging population), that’s when we can honestly assess if the entitlements are sustainable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/89 "2009-05-06T01:14:39Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Thatcher couldn’t get elected in Britain until Labor ruined large swaths of the economy. Reagan couldn’t get elected until stagflation and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan gave Republican principles new life. And so it will be this time - if your grand Democratic experiment works, you win regardless of whatever silly talking points Republicans come up with. If it doesn’t, Republicans just have to run against those failed policies, and they’ll be back in power. > > That’s the bottom line. In this light one might also say that a Democrat couldn’t get elected until the Republican deregulation and tax cutting policies drove the economy into the crapper. What do you think will happen if the country is neither heaven with a better view or in chaos? That’s the most likely scenario. BTW, I don’t think anyone is claiming the stimulus package will magically restore prosperity. It will just hold things together and stabilize them until a natural recovery takes place. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/90 "2009-05-06T01:46:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I certainly don’t see it as 100% the other way; I’ve heard plenty of disaffection with Obama’s decisions from the farther left of the Democrats. I wasn’t quite clear on what I meant. I think that generally, the party out of power is going to be universally against anything the party in power does. Members of the party in power may or may not be blindly supportive. So, I’m not saying that all Democrats are supportive of Obama, it’s that in a Republican-controlled government, all Democrats will stand against Republican initiatives solely because they come from the ‘enemy’. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/91 "2009-05-06T01:50:18Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I wasn’t quite clear on what I meant. > > I think that generally, the party out of power is going to be universally against anything the party in power does. Members of the party in power may or may not be blindly supportive. > > So, I’m not saying that all Democrats are supportive of Obama, it’s that in a Republican-controlled government, all Democrats will stand against Republican initiatives solely because they come from the ‘enemy’. I wish ! The Democrats are more likely to suck up and cave in to the Republicans that they are to stand up to them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/92 "2009-05-06T01:52:21Z")
May I suggest an alternative explanation? That when a single party attains dominance, they bring out thier box of long-cherished notions, the stuff they could never in a million years pass through any sort of bi-partisan environment. The extreme stuff, and not in a good way. The kind of stuff that the moderates of said party probably don’t really support, but don’t have the grit to oppose. The kind of stuff that nobody in the opposing party can support, simply because it flies in the face of everything they stand for. It might not be a simple blind rejection, it might actually spring from long-held principles. ---
**Author:** ![2ply](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/b2d939/32.png) [@2ply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ply)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/93 "2009-05-06T02:07:56Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > The government’s own trustees project that Social Security & Medicare will be insolvent without major reform. This is the definition of “successful”? Yes, Social Security is the definition of success. The system has been able to make payouts since 1937 and has kept millions of elderly Americans out of poverty, just as it was intended to do. I agree the program is going to require major reform in the coming years, but that doesn’t mean its collapse is at all inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/94 "2009-05-06T02:18:13Z")
> [@2ply](#): > > Yes, Social Security is the definition of success. The system has been able to make payouts since 1937 and has kept millions of elderly Americans out of poverty, just as it was intended to do. I agree the program is going to require major reform in the coming years, but that doesn’t mean its collapse is at all inevitable. Yes; even if it collapsed tomorrow ( which it won’t ), it has done what is was made to do for decades. And as I recall those claims of doom are from “estimates” created by the Republicans that assume no or little economic growth for decades. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/95 "2009-05-06T17:22:14Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > The latest from Mr Steele: [http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/44203877.html](http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/44203877.html) > > Is this a viable strategy to get disaffected moderates back to the GOP? > > Can you suggest a more viable strategy? > > As someone who regularly voted Republican in decades past (but not in the 21st century), I have to say I’m not feeling any inclination to sit at their table. I feel the same. Once upon a time I was registered Republican, and I’ve always considered myself to be pretty moderate (whatever that means anymore). I left. I don’t have any compelling reason to go back. Basically, they pissed me off. Why “reward” them now? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/96 "2009-05-06T17:42:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > BTW, I don’t think anyone is claiming the stimulus package will magically restore prosperity. It will just hold things together and stabilize them until a natural recovery takes place. Kinda like a cast on a broken bone. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/97 "2009-05-06T17:45:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When 80% of the population relies on the government for education funding, for health care, and other services, it’s hard to win an election by promising to cut services. Well, that’s as it should be, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/98 "2009-05-06T19:42:56Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I wasn’t quite clear on what I meant. > > I think that generally, the party out of power is going to be universally against anything the party in power does. Members of the party in power may or may not be blindly supportive. > > So, I’m not saying that all Democrats are supportive of Obama, it’s that in a Republican-controlled government, all **Democrats will stand against Republican initiatives solely because they come from the ‘enemy’**. This is not true at all (bolding mine). That’s a Republican tactic. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/99 "2009-05-06T19:54:24Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I lived in New York city most of my life. If you were running, I might very well look around, hold my nose and vote for you, since you’re about as good an option as I was ever likely to get there. > > That’s what I mean by settling for half a loaf. A conservative of my ilk isn’t likely to get elected dog catcher in New York City, so a Rudy Giuliani may be as coinservative a candidate as I’m going to get. > > I still fai lto see where Arlen Specter offered someone like me even half a loaf. Was he with the conservatives on social issues? Obviously not. On the judges? Nope. On taxes and spending? Again, no- he showed by his craven surrender to Obama’s budget that he wasn’t with us on ANYTHING!!! > > Specter, like Jeffords before him, was an opportunist who loved being the fig leaf who allowed Democratic Presidents to claim, with a straight face, that he was acting in a bipartisan manner. And so long as the GOP needed them to keep a majority in the Senate, Specter and Jeffords were happy to extort concessions and perks for their home states. > > Well, Specter is about to find out the same sad truth Jeffords has learned: he doesn’t MATTER any more! The Democrats don’t need him, the way the Republicans did, and don’t have to offer him squat! He won’t have any more power or status, because he’s got nowhere else to go. NEITHER side will see the slightest need to treat him with courtesy, let alone deference. > > In fact, it would serve the weasel right if some Daily Kos wacko (one who’s never forgiven Specter for the “magic bullet theory”) would run against him in the Democratic primary and trounce him! Well, well, well… I KNEW Specter had made a dumb mistake and had made himself utterly impotent. I just didn’t know HOW irrelevat he’d become or how quickly: [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/05/senate\_democrats\_deny\_specter.html?hpid=topnews](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2009/05/senate_democrats_deny_specter.html?hpid=topnews) Nice move, Arlen! You haven’t been a Democrat for 10 days, and already you’ve been royally dissed. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/100 "2009-05-06T20:11:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, that’s as it should be, isn’t it? Yes it should! I look forward to welcoming our totalitarian overlords. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=6)