# GOP welcoming moderates now. This strategy work for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423 "2009-05-05T15:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/101 "2009-05-06T20:18:43Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Yes it should! I look forward to welcoming our **totalitarian** overlords. (bolding mine) I do not think that word means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/102 "2009-05-06T20:18:57Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Yes it should! I look forward to welcoming our totalitarian overlords. For we all know that providing access to healthcare and education to all is a sure sign of either Communism or Fascism, take your pick. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/103 "2009-05-06T20:24:04Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Yes it should! I look forward to welcoming our totalitarian overlords. Giving people goods and services, whether it’s a good idea or not is not even CLOSE to totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is about control, not . . . giving people stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/104 "2009-05-06T20:43:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Totalitarianism is about control, not . . . giving people stuff. That statement is so naive you must be toying with me. _“Paying for a dinner date is not about getting into the pants of a girl, it’s simply about feed her some food that evening so she’s not hungry!”_ _"Taking a congressman out to a golf game isn’t about political influence, it’s simply about enjoying some sunshine and good conversation over a few beers! "_ The **outcome** of “giving people stuff” **is** “control.” I realize you can’t see beyond the SURFACE LAYER aspects of “giving people stuff” – that’s why I assume the most of the country does not either. Therefore, like I said, state control is inevitable and I’ll just do the best I can to go with the flow. _“Peace. Land. Bread.”_ _“Pullout Iraq. Jobs. Free Healthcare.”_ – same idea, just different words. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/105 "2009-05-06T20:44:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Giving people goods and services, whether it’s a good idea or not is not even CLOSE to totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is about control, not . . . giving people stuff. _sigh_ We’re dealing with minds that perceive no important distinction between North Korea and Sweden. Or, for that matter, between Soviet Communism and the New Deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/106 "2009-05-06T20:55:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > For we all know that providing access to healthcare and education to all is a sure sign of either Communism or Fascism, take your pick. :rolleyes: Ok, you’ve convinced me. There are ZERO consequences of doling out government entitlements and “free” services. Sweden doesn’t really have a budget deficit – it’s just lies so that an evil Swedish government can scare people into cutting back welfare services. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/107 "2009-05-06T21:02:47Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Ok, you’ve convinced me. There are ZERO consequences of doling out government entitlements and “free” services. Sweden doesn’t really have a budget deficit – it’s just lies so that an evil Swedish government can scare people into cutting back welfare services. [Wiki says](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden) > [@](#): > > “The government budget has improved dramatically from a record deficit of more than 12% of GDP in 1993. In the last decade, from 1998 to present, the government has run a surplus every year, except for 2003 and 2004. The surplus for 2007 is expected to be 138 billion ($20b) kronor.[20]” Those Swedish Socialist sure are doomed, not like the US in the las 8 years of rugged conservatism… ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/108 "2009-05-06T21:11:38Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > Those Swedish Socialist sure are doomed, not like the US in the las 8 years of rugged conservatism… That totally makes sense. If USA implements universal health care and increases Social Security benefits, we’ll be deficit free like Sweden. It’s logical. Like I said previously, there are ZERO consequences. We are in agreement, yes? Btw, this news story is a lie: [Crisis to turn Sweden’s budget surplus into deficit](http://www.thelocal.se/15442/20081104) I don’t know why they are “privatizing”. Those Swedes are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/109 "2009-05-06T21:16:43Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Ok, you’ve convinced me. There are ZERO consequences of doling out government entitlements and “free” services. Yes, because we all know that there are never any intermediate gray areas between extremes. Either a mixed-economy welfare state is a poverty-racked totalitarian hellhole, or it is a limitless cornucopia of cost-free universal benefits with perpetual sunshine and puppies for everyone. We cannot possibly discuss taxpayer-funded entitlement programs as though they were pragmatic real-world policy options with measurable trade-offs between their advantages and disadvantages, because that would just make no sense at all. Honestly, I think there must be something about the words “government services” and “entitlements” that just makes some conservatives’ and libertarians’ brains freeze up. They couldn’t use rhetoric like this if they were actually able to hear how ridiculous it sounds. Could they? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/110 "2009-05-06T21:18:30Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > That totally makes sense. If USA implements universal health care and increases Social Security benefits, we’ll be deficit free like Sweden. It’s logical. > > Like I said previously, there are ZERO consequences. We are in agreement, yes? > > Btw, this news story is a lie: [Crisis to turn Sweden’s budget surplus into deficit](http://www.thelocal.se/15442/20081104) > > I don’t know why they are “privatizing”. Those Swedes are stupid. [check this out](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/111 "2009-05-06T21:20:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Steele was chosen precisely \*because \*of his ability to be a black Republican on TV. [Paraphrase of Old TV Commercial] “I’m not a Black Republican, but I play one on TV.” [/Paraphrase of Old TV Commercial] Except, Steele, I suppose, really _is_ a black Republican. But what a goof-ball!! ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/112 "2009-05-06T21:55:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > We cannot possibly discuss taxpayer-funded entitlement programs as though they were pragmatic real-world policy options with measurable trade-offs between their advantages and disadvantages Use this SDMB as an example. In my observation, 99% of the rhetoric from the lefties focuses exclusively on **being the recipient** of free services. There are almost never any followup sentences about the “funding” or “tradeoffs”. Don’t believe me? Search the archives for threads started by leftists that want more government services. You’ll typically see, _“I want free health care. I want this. I want that.”_ It’s all _“want want want.”_ No sentences about the tradeoffs mentioned in the OP. For example: [I’m ready for class war. Bring on the socialism!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513024) [The case for health care…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=492676) Those 2 OPs in those threads are typical of socialist writing. The rational discussion including “tradeoffs” that you talk about would be ideal, but it’s just a fantasy. It is not natural for human beings to consider tradeoffs. It’s much easier just to bang out a message about “things I want the government to give me for free.” I’m not a conservative but I do notice that in discussions, conservatives will bring up the “tradeoffs” way more often than the liberals. The problem with conservatives is that they don’t follow through on any fiscal discipline they supposedly believe in once they are in office. They often spend more than the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/113 "2009-05-06T21:56:46Z")
**Ruminator,** what has anything you have posted in this thread to do with totalitarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/114 "2009-05-06T22:01:34Z")
The tradeoff is that rich people pay their fair share of taxes like they do in every other civilized country. I never heard conservatives bitching about the financial cost of illegally invading and occupying another country for 6+ years, by the way, and that was MUCH more expensive than a decent health care plan would ever be. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/115 "2009-05-06T22:01:42Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Use this SDMB as an example. In my observation, 99% of the rhetoric from the lefties focuses exclusively on **being the recipient** of free services. There are almost never any followup sentences about the “funding” or “tradeoffs”. > > Don’t believe me? Search the archives for threads started by leftists that want more government services. You’ll typically see, _“I want free health care. I want this. I want that.”_ It’s all _“want want want.”_ No sentences about the tradeoffs mentioned in the OP. For example: > > [I’m ready for class war. Bring on the socialism!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513024) > > [The case for health care…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=492676) > > Those 2 OPs in those threads are typical of socialist writing. > > The rational discussion including “tradeoffs” that you talk about would be ideal, but it’s just a fantasy. It is not natural for human beings to consider tradeoffs. It’s much easier just to bang out a message about “things I want the government to give me for free.” > > I’m not a conservative but I do notice that in discussions, conservatives will bring up the “tradeoffs” way more often than the liberals. The problem with conservatives is that they don’t follow through on any fiscal discipline they supposedly believe in once they are in office. They often spend more than the Democrats. I’ve seen lots of SD posters say things like “I will not mind higher taxes if I get X” Is that not a tradeoff? I think everybody with half a brain assumes that some of those things will be funded with higher taxes and others by reorienting priorities, like for example expending less in preparing to win WWIII against the soviet army or subsidizing agricultural giants. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/116 "2009-05-06T22:03:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Ruminator,** what has anything you have posted in this thread to do with totalitarianism? I was responding to your comment that more govt services is a Good Thing. I think that sends the country in a certain direction. You do not. I think that’s the gist of it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/117 "2009-05-06T22:06:43Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > That totally makes sense. If USA implements universal health care and increases Social Security benefits, we’ll be deficit free like Sweden. It’s logical. > > Like I said previously, there are ZERO consequences. We are in agreement, yes? > > Btw, this news story is a lie: [Crisis to turn Sweden’s budget surplus into deficit](http://www.thelocal.se/15442/20081104) > > I don’t know why they are “privatizing”. Those Swedes are stupid. First, are you saying budget deficits equal totalitarianism? If not, perhaps you’d admit you went a little overboard. There are consequences of everything we do. There are consequence of not supplying everyone with healthcare also. I’d expect the Swedes had a surplus because they ran their budget a bit more competently than Bushco did. As for their new deficit, just maybe this is due to the financial meltdown that started right here in the good old U S of A under Bush? We are all interdependent, and no one can escape from the consequences of a problem on Wall Street. Or do you think socialism caused the collapse also? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/118 "2009-05-06T22:10:00Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > I was responding to your comment that more govt services is a Good Thing. I think that sends the country in a certain direction. You do not. I think that’s the gist of it. Slippery Slope False Dilemma Add an straw man and some no true Scots and I’ll win the fallacy bingo! ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/119 "2009-05-06T22:14:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I never heard conservatives bitching about the financial cost of illegally invading and occupying another country for 6+ years, by the way, and that was MUCH more expensive than a decent health care plan would ever be. I don’t think messing with Iraq was a good idea. Anyways, have you crunched the numbers? Cost of Iraq War is something like $600 billion over six years. [http://zfacts.com/p/447.html](http://zfacts.com/p/447.html) That stats I’ve seen says USA spends more than $2 trillion per year on health care. How does Universal Health Care Plan cost less than $100 billion per year? You have a cite that crunches the numbers? Maybe I misinterpreted your comparison. Also, it would be a fallacy to consider the $600 billion spent in Iraq as funds that would have been available for US health care. A lot of that money wouldn’t even EXIST if there wasn’t a conflict in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/120 "2009-05-06T22:30:01Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > I’ve seen lots of SD posters say things like “I will not mind higher taxes if I get X” > Is that not a tradeoff? Yes, that is a tradeoff. But that’s not how typical SD posters write their wish list. To clarify, I’m talking naive rants in the OP, not all the reply posts. I bet in the next month we’ll have another liberal posting a wishlist without any sentences about pragmatic funding or tradeoffs. We’re about due for one. There are intelligent leftists here trying to be pragmatic. I’m not denying that. However, they’re in the minority. This phenomenon of ignoring tradeoffs also mirrors itself in real life. Also, I think some of the posts saying, _“I will pay higher taxes if I get X”_ is a little disingenuous if the poster gets a net positive benefit from the government – an entitlement that exceeds the “higher” tax he pays out. Obviously, I can’t prove that for everyone but would you agree that it’s easier to volunteer for higher taxes if that’s the case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=7)