# GOP welcoming moderates now. This strategy work for you? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 5, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423 "2009-05-05T15:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/141 "2009-05-07T01:53:57Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > In fact decreasing quality of life is pretty much the only common attribute in pre-totalitarian situations, ejs Weimar Republic, 1930 Argentina, pre-fascist Italy… And the Bolsheviks came to power in a Russia devastated by military disasters, industrial paralysis and urban food shortages. And China was in even worse shape when Mao took over (and mostly not because of Mao). In Cuba in the 1950s, quality of life might not have been decreasing, but it was as a pretty grim level for most Cubans and it was obvious that wouldn’t change if nothing else did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/142 "2009-05-07T01:54:37Z")
Again, I was talking about the net difference in cost, not the total cost. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/143 "2009-05-07T02:02:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Thankfully, we live in an age blessed by the saintly wisdom of **Ruminator** , who can accurately predict that universal health care will cause totalitarianism. Btw, I want to clarify that I’m not against UHC as a goal for society. I have stated that before. What I am against is the typical emotion-filled factless mathless discussion of UHC without tradeoffs that I typically see. Anyways, if people really really really wanted to pay attention, they could see that the federal government has to accumulate more power to be able to dole out UHC. This has ramifications but the “gift” of “free” healthcare is so great that it blinds people to the negatives. If UHC makes sense, perhaps there’s another way to dispense it – maybe community cooperatives or something. Something a little more federated so there isn’t one central database in Washington DC with everyone’s medical history. There isn’t one corruptible Authority to control who does/doesn’t get medical care. There isn’t one big Administrator in charge $2 trillion dollars of health care funds that would be the target of lobbying groups’ influence. I’m not convinced that we have to be locked into thinking that the Federal Govt is our one and only saviour. The socialist health care in Europe and Canada are not convincing. They are running deficits. Plus their World War II generation (and all their old-age illnesses) haven’t fully been processed through their system. Their systems are not proven. > [@](#): > > Seriously, if you can’t predict it, then how do you know that _decreasing_ government services won’t cause totalitarianism? Totalitarianism relies on concentration of government power of peoples’ lives. What did the “Enabling Act” do in Nazi Germany? The 1933 Enabling Law was titled _“Law to Remedy the Distress of the People and the State”_ Did it bring Germany closer to or farther away from a Totalitarianism? They never title these things as _“Law to Ram It Up Your Rear End.”_ It’s never that obvious is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/144 "2009-05-07T02:03:36Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > And costing more than the Iraq debacle while less than the actual cost of health care and insuring more people is bad because…? I don’t know. I wasn’t making a value judgement on that. I was responding to the common statement that UHC costs less than Iraq. Do you have math that shows that it doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/145 "2009-05-07T02:11:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Again, I was talking about the net difference in cost, not the total cost. Again, the **net difference in cost** I calculated is $880 billion. If you factor in the UHC “efficiency” discount of 5%, it’s still $836 billion. How is $836 billion less than $666 billion? What numbers are you calculating? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/146 "2009-05-07T02:16:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Because with luck that money wouldn’t have been added to the deficit. Those fiscally responsible Republicans just borrowed it; perish the thought of asking the American public to pay for this war. > > But the point is relevant, since the war shows that those who claim that we can’t afford UHC or other good stuff are hypocritical, since they have no problem with our being able to afford useless wars. It’s not that we can’t pay to improve the lot of the mass of Americans, it is just that they don’t want to. Ding ding! **Voyager** and I agree on something. Wow. On that positive note, I’m done for the night. You all have given me much to think about. Tomorrow, I will wake up a liberal and try my hand at arguing with the conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/147 "2009-05-07T02:16:41Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > I was responding to your comment that more govt services is a Good Thing. I think that sends the country in a certain direction. You do not. I think that’s the gist of it. But, what has **anything** you have posted in this thread to do with totalitarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/148 "2009-05-07T02:20:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, what has **anything** you have posted in this thread to do with totalitarianism? Nothing. You win, ok? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/149 "2009-05-07T02:21:58Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Since the terms “Republican” and “Conservative” have now gone their separate ways, I think Moderates are all they have left…TRM I have to agree with this. The Republican Party has been the home of RINOS for far too long. The last two elections, I voted Republican because it was the closest to what I wanted. If the Libertarians ever get someone who is not a moonbat like Ron Paul, I’ll probably go with them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/150 "2009-05-07T02:48:27Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Therefore, it makes sense to say, _“How does giving me bread lead to totalitarianism? I just don’t see it.”_ I agree with the face value of that statement-- what else do you expect the average citizen to say!!! Nor would a highly intelligent citizen say anything different. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/151 "2009-05-07T02:56:46Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > So, take a 5% discount off the figures I used to insure the 46 million uninsured. Take 5% off $1.1 trillion or $880 billion. It STILL costs more than the Iraq debacle. I made a mistake on this. I should’ve taken then 5% off the total USA GDP of $14 trillion and not the health care costs of $880 billion. 5% of the 14 trillion dollar GDP is $700 billion in savings per year. However, I don’t it’s realistic to expect a 5% GDP savings in the USA for many reasons. You guys probably know those reasons. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/152 "2009-05-07T02:58:01Z")
I get the sense that some of the people won’t be happy until the GOP either dies off or is a slightly variant version of the Democratic Party. If we had a Centrist Party, the lines between the extremes are blurred: Where do the socially and or economically conservative Democrats go? Where do the socially and or economically liberal Republicans go? If you’re “mixed” - economically conservative and socially liberal, or vice-versa, where do you go? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/153 "2009-05-07T02:59:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nor would a highly intelligent citizen say anything different. According to the wisdom of **Chronos** , we can’t tell whether we are heading towards state control or not. Nobody can tell. So you’re right. Again. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/154 "2009-05-07T04:54:29Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > I get the sense that some of the people won’t be happy until the GOP either dies off or is a slightly variant version of the Democratic Party. That is what we already have today, and is why their base has turned their backs on them ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/155 "2009-05-07T05:09:02Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > I get the sense that some of the people won’t be happy until the GOP either dies off or is a slightly variant version of the Democratic Party. Actually, I’d prefer that the Republicans or their successors end up somewhat to the left of the present Democrats, and that the Democrats be well left of that. And that the positions of the present Republican mainstream be regarded as those of extremist loonies. It won’t happen of course; it’s much more likely we’ll go even further right and become fascist. But that’s what I’d prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/156 "2009-05-07T12:04:23Z")
Welcome mat withdrawn. [Limbaugh](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/07/limbaugh-to-powell-become-a-democrat-2/): ““What Colin Powell needs to do is close the loop and become a Democrat instead of claiming to be a Republican interested in reforming the Republican Party,” Limbaugh said on his radio show Wednesday.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/157 "2009-05-07T13:00:10Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > I get the sense that some of the people won’t be happy until the GOP either dies off or is a slightly variant version of the Democratic Party. If we had a Centrist Party, the lines between the extremes are blurred: > > Where do the socially and or economically conservative Democrats go? > > Where do the socially and or economically liberal Republicans go? > > If you’re “mixed” - economically conservative and socially liberal, or vice-versa, where do you go? How old are you? The Republican party of Ike through Ford was basically Centrist. Even Bush the Elder acted like a Centrist/Moderate overall. It was a very mixed bag and was actually light on the Social Conservatives that for some reason were largely Dems at the time. The Social Conservatives always seem to be in an uneasy alliance with another party until they got their tenterhooks deeply embedded in the Republican party. I would say the Repubs of that time were very Pro-Business and Hawkish and had far more Fiscal conservatives than the Dems. But the Social Conservatives and/or Theo-cons were brought over mainly by Reagan. I liked the man a lot but 20/20 hindsight says he wrecked the party. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/158 "2009-05-07T13:37:30Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > I don’t know. I wasn’t making a value judgement on that. > > I was responding to the common statement that UHC costs less than Iraq. Do you have math that shows that it doesn’t? Nope, I dont think its relevant if it costs more or less than that. Also “common statement”? i dont think its so common. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/159 "2009-05-07T13:48:48Z")
Can I just see if I got this right? Some here believe that the GOP has not been the home of true Conservative values, that “Moderates are all they have left”, and that the GOP has “been the home of RINOS for far too long” Many recognize that the GOP is increasingly becoming a Southern regional party. Steele comes in to his position articulating the concept that the GOP needs to reach out to regrow the party’s demographics and does so by undercutting Specter which drives him out and by the statement made in this op, essentially saying, come in, there’s a seat at the table, just don’t expect anyone to listen to you or let you eat the food. [Sessions](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/06/politics/politico/main4995094.shtml) “a Southern, white conservative man who has drawn fire for racially insensitive comments in the past” is elevated to point man for the GOP on whoever Obama selects for Souter’s Supremes seat. Powell, McCain, and many others are labelled by voices of “the base” as RINOs and should just go. Hmmm. Once upon a time Reagan (and the recently deceased [Kemp](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jack-kemp3-2009may03,0,4950829.story) created a Big Tent and figured out ways “to ‘add and multiply’ the party” and amazingly that tent held some disparate groups within it for quite a while but now different groups are each trying to sing, to the tune of “This land is my Land”: “This tent is my tent, it is not your tent …” Moderates do not belong in the GOP, at least not this GOP. Center Right folk are being driven out. People with mixed positions - Far Right on some but center on others - are being driven out. Libertarians and Populist social conservatives are seeing if they can work together but are also looking for the chance to knife each other when the opportunity presents. Is that pretty much where things are? ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423/160 "2009-05-07T14:04:32Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > According to the wisdom of **Chronos** , we can’t tell whether we are heading towards state control or not. Nobody can tell. So you’re right. Again. Nonsense. Anyone with a lick of sense knows the rate of avacado farm subsidies is an excellent predictor of incipient totalitarianism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gop-welcoming-moderates-now-this-strategy-work-for-you/495423.md?page=9)