Gopher turtles: Is peeing on themselves their only defense?

[Alba]

@dracoi

I would agree that fear reactions are not the same as a defense tactic, but using a lizard dropping its tail is a terrible example. That is clearly both a fear reaction and a defense tactic. The lizard doesn’t drop its tail through some unemotional analysis of the pros and cons*. It gets scared enough, it drops the tail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotomy#Vertebrates

In most lizards that sacrifice the tail in this manner, breakage occurs only when the tail is grasped with sufficient force, but some animals, such as some species of geckos, can perform true autotomy, throwing off the tail when sufficiently stressed, such as when attacked by ants.

Emphasis mine. That doesn’t mean the animal is in fear. Geckos that can perform true autotomy can do it when sufficiently stressed. Again, that doesn’t necessarily imply fear.

[Alba]

@dracoi

*And I think Chronos’ main point in talking about this is that the reptilian brain isn’t advanced enough for an unemotional analysis. When it feels fear, it reacts in a pre-set fear response. Presumably, this pre-set response also aids it in surviving long enough to reproduce and thus the fear response is simultaneously a defense tactic. To try to separate fear and defense in an animal with such a simple brain is not really possible.

Nitpick, Chronos doesn’t specify. He states they are the same thing. I highly doubt they are the same thing in every species. You think shitting yourself in fear works well as a defence tactic?

[Lion on the savannah] “Oh my, the smell of this guy shitting himself is truly atrocious. My appetite for eating his intestine has gone. Pesky humans and their defence tactics.”

[RedSwinglineOne]

@Alba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotomy#Vertebrates
Emphasis mine. That doesn’t mean the animal is in fear. Geckos that can perform true autotomy can do it when sufficiently stressed. Again, that doesn’t necessarily imply fear.

What exactly is your definition of fear? A lizard being attacked by ants, sufficiently “stressed” to the point of dropping off a major body part is not in fear?
If it is not a fear response, the only other option I see is that you think the lizard, after some internal debate, consciously decided that the loss of its tail would be beneficial in its fight against the ants. Do you think lizards are even aware of their ability to drop their tails?

[Alba]

@RedSwinglineOne

What exactly is your definition of fear? A lizard being attacked by ants, sufficiently “stressed” to the point of dropping off a major body part is not in fear?

I would say that when a lizard sees a predator that will provoke a fear response; heightened senses, adrenaline rush (or the reptilian equivalent), etc. But it will not immediately drop its tail. Not until being chased, attacked or, with the majority of lizards, till force has been applied to their tail by an other animal.

@RedSwinglineOne

If it is not a fear response, the only other option I see is that you think the lizard, after some internal debate, consciously decided that the loss of its tail would be beneficial in its fight against the ants. Do you think lizards are even aware of their ability to drop their tails?

…Really?