# Gorilla shot to save young boy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046 "2016-05-30T01:13:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/181 "2016-05-31T10:53:05Z")
> [@Pylesos](#): > > Unexpectedly :rolleyes: mom and dad have different last names. The media keeps referring to him as her husband :rolleyes: I have been legally married for over 25 years. My spouse and I do not share the same last name. Anything further I’d have to say on that subject belongs in the Pit so I’ll restrain myself here. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/182 "2016-05-31T11:13:20Z")
I’ll join ya Broomstick…I’m 19 years in and likewise our names are still different. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/183 "2016-05-31T11:19:55Z")
We’ve got y’all beat, we’re living in sin. Sweet, nasty, sweaty sin. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/184 "2016-05-31T11:22:50Z")
[No, _no_ secondary containment wire fence.](http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/05/30/usda-review-gorillas-death-zoo-look-safety-exhibits/85165924/) > [@](#): > > Just before 4 p.m., a 4-year-old boy went **over a stainless steel rail that’s a little more than 3 feet high** , with vertical bars every eight feet. He made his way through the bushes to the edge of the moat, **a distance of approximately 4 feet**. From there, he dropped 15 feet to the moat, into a foot and a half of water. The boy, who has not been identified yet by authorities, started splashing around. > > Keepers tried to call the gorillas inside. Two females in the exhibit complied. Harambe did not. > > Zoo visitors – and there were plenty of them, more than 7,000 on Saturday – reacted. > > Harambe heard the commotion. Then, he spotted the child. The gorilla went down into the water and grabbed the boy by the ankle. **Harambe carried the boy up a ladder to dry land** (Bolding mine) Let us review: He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas’ enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder. Just for some context for those who state that 38 years of the same enclosure (apparently never major safety updates in that time despite major advances in technology and ) is proof of its adequacy … On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called “[never events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_events)” - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never. When that happens the immediate responses must be: > [@](#): > > 1.apologize to the patient > 2. report the event > 3. perform a root cause analysis > 4. waive costs directly related to the event [About root cause analysis.](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/primers/primer/10/root-cause-analysis) This is a never event. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/185 "2016-05-31T12:08:51Z")
That’s seriously lacking compared to some of the zoos I have been to. I’d love to hear the chatter amongst zoo people around the world. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/186 "2016-05-31T12:28:16Z")
Once a child was in the gorilla’s enclosure, being manhandled, the only thing to do was kill the gorilla. THAT decision doesn’t trouble me. But ANY zoo setup that allows a little kid to get into that enclosure is unforgivably flawed. Whoever designed the enclosure HAD to have known huge numbers of little kids would be attending the zoo every day, and shouldn’t have allowed for any possibility of a kid getting in. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/187 "2016-05-31T12:36:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > When that happens the immediate responses must be: > [About root cause analysis.](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/primers/primer/10/root-cause-analysis) > > This is a never event. Absolutely. I haven’t seen anyone say that the zoo should not now fix the weakness(es) that this boy exploited to get in. The fundamental philosophy of root cause analysis in a medical context, at least as it was taught by me, is that it is not done in order to assign “blame,” and to punish transgressors. Rather it was developed as a system specifically to try to avoid blame and punishment, and focus on fixing the problems present within the system. I’m all for using RCA to fix this. I’m less fond of the blame game, particularly by armchair quarterbacks who are suddenly experts in everything from tranquilizer darts to gorilla behavior. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/188 "2016-05-31T12:55:42Z")
They can put up glass or plexiglass barriers. Wouldn’t surprise me if it costs millions. Maybe they just close it down and build an entirely new exhibit. That costs many millions of dollars. That’s millions of dollars taken away from all the other zoo animals and programs, and I’m already highly dubious about their “conservation” efforts. I’ve also read of studies that show most people spend about 30 seconds to a minute in front of each exhibit and rarely read whatever educational info might be posted. The educational aspect is suspect. Most people are much better educated by watching animal documentaries on TV. Harambe was born and raised in captivity purely for amusement and any offspring of his will spend their lives in captivity for people’s amusement and not a single one will ever be reintroduced to the wild. Maybe mommy and daddy will donate the proceeds of their lawsuit to the zoo to pay for barriers. Hahahahaha. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/189 "2016-05-31T13:12:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > They can put up glass or plexiglass barriers. Wouldn’t surprise me if it costs millions. Maybe they just close it down and build an entirely new exhibit. That costs many millions of dollars. That’s millions of dollars taken away from all the other zoo animals and programs, and I’m already highly dubious about their “conservation” efforts. I’ve also read of studies that show most people spend about 30 seconds to a minute in front of each exhibit and rarely read whatever educational info might be posted. The educational aspect is suspect. Most people are much better educated by watching animal documentaries on TV. Harambe was born and raised in captivity purely for amusement and any offspring of his will spend their lives in captivity for people’s amusement and not a single one will ever be reintroduced to the wild. > > Maybe mommy and daddy will donate the proceeds of their lawsuit to the zoo to pay for barriers. Hahahahaha. They already had plans for a very expensive overhaul of the gorilla habitat. Does anyone ever read anymore. There are so many psychics here. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/190 "2016-05-31T13:15:44Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/191 "2016-05-31T13:17:29Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > They already had plans for a very expensive overhaul of the gorilla habitat. > > Does anyone ever read anymore. There are so many psychics here. And now they’ll have less money. Does anyone think around here anymore? So many dreamers who think zoos print money with magic. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/192 "2016-05-31T13:24:00Z")
> [@spamforbrains](#): > > Where exactly do you think they are going to get another gorilla? There aren’t many left. Personally, I think any gorilla’s life is worth far more than any child’s life simply based on their relative rarity. Kids are a dime a dozen. Gorillas, not. Gorilla Lives Matter. > [@](#): > > Keepers tried to call the gorillas inside. Two females in the exhibit complied. Harambe did not. The zoo needs to teach the gorillas the sign language for "Paws Up! Don’t Shoot!’ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/193 "2016-05-31T13:36:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called “[never events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_events)” - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never. The problem with this analogy is that it ignores that surgery patients are without agency in the situation, utterly at the mercy of the doctors. Any bad decisions, any failure of care, has to belong exclusively to the doctors. In the case of zoos, it is certainly reasonable to hold the zoo accountable for controlling the _animals_. Visiting people have to have some responsibility for their own actions. > [@DSeid](#): > > Let us review: > He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas’ enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder. Also, he pushed through the bushes between the railing and the drop before the moat. Probably those bushes were not as dense and thorny as they could have been. Otherwise, I see no flaws here. > [@astorian](#): > > ANY zoo setup that allows a little kid to get into that enclosure is unforgivably flawed. Whoever designed the enclosure HAD to have known huge numbers of little kids would be attending the zoo every day, and shouldn’t have allowed for any possibility of a kid getting in. Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are _no barriers at all_ keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/194 "2016-05-31T13:48:37Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Probably why there is also a sign that says children must be accompanied by an adult. Cincinnati zoo gets around a million visitors a year, so if kids were regularly falling into animal enclosures we’d hear about it. The safety precautions appear to be adequate. But, [according to this](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/harambe-gorillas-zoos-safety-incidents-animals/), 15 people have died and 110 were injured in zoo incidents since 1990. I’d expect parents to be aware that zoos aren’t 100% safe child-proofed day care centers. Yes, you \*can \*get into enclosures if you’re determined. That’s why the sign says don’t. I take it you did not see the Zoo safety guidelines I posted upthread that made the to me sensible point that warnings and barriers are not exclusive: > [@](#): > > Warning to be given of all edges where a person might fall, including into water; and, where necessary, such edges to be guarded by a barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling. Where was the “barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling” in this case? ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/195 "2016-05-31T13:48:44Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > … > > Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are _no barriers at all_ keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains. :rolleyes: This is absolutely correct. However, it is unfortunately not all that uncommon for 4-year-old kids to be killed because they plunged in front of fast-moving cars and trains. These don’t make the national news because of their unfortunate lack of rarity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/196 "2016-05-31T13:52:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [No, _no_ secondary containment wire fence.](http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/05/30/usda-review-gorillas-death-zoo-look-safety-exhibits/85165924/)(Bolding mine) > Let us review: > He climbed over a 3 foot railing, ran about 4 feet, and fell 15 feet into a moat with a bit of water in it that is part of the gorillas’ enclosure, attached on the gorilla side by a ladder. > > Just for some context for those who state that 38 years of the same enclosure (apparently never major safety updates in that time despite major advances in technology and ) is proof of its adequacy … > > On the medical side of adverse outcome there are what are called “[never events](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_events)” - which as the name implies are events that should literally never occur if they do are sentinal occurences that your system likley has a fundamental flaw that needs repair. These are things like a sponge left inside a patient, wrong side surgery, etc. Yes they occur more than never. > > When that happens the immediate responses must be: > [About root cause analysis.](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/primers/primer/10/root-cause-analysis) > > This is a never event. The legal concept you may be looking for here is “Res ipsa loquitur” (or, “the thing speaks for itself”). > [@](#): > > In the common law of torts, res ipsa loquitur (Latin for “the thing speaks for itself”) is a doctrine that infers negligence from the very nature of an accident or injury in the absence of direct evidence on how any defendant behaved. Although modern formulations differ by jurisdiction, common law originally stated that the accident must satisfy the necessary elements of negligence: duty, breach of duty, causation, and injury. In res ipsa loquitur, the elements of duty of care, breach and causation are inferred from an injury that does not ordinarily occur without negligence. If a 4 year old child is able to defeat your safety precautions, those precautions are arguably, by definition, inadequate from a negligence POV, as the barrier ought to have been designed and built so that 4 year olds can’t get through it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/197 "2016-05-31T13:55:29Z")
The fault for this lies squarely with the mother. A 4 year old should not be able or allowed to run freely in any venue - even Walmart - but especially not in a crowded park where there is real danger, not just from ‘falling into random enclosures’ but in getting lost, taken (worst case) or a number of other things that can reasonably happen. The zoo has taken reasonable precautions to prevent and make it clear to ‘not’ enter the area - as others have said, the child had to crawl under railings, thru bushes and then over a concrete barrier - this take intent, and while the child certainly intended to do it, was not truly responsible for his own stupidity or understanding of the results of his actions. That lies squarely again with his guardian, his mother. I understand that mother’s get overwhelmed - and things happen - but that does not reduce her responsibility in this matter. I applaud the zoo for making the only decision this mother left them with - the destruction of the Gorilla to save the child. While its not a tough call from a ‘save the child’ aspect, its a heart wrenching call from the caretakers side. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/198 "2016-05-31T13:56:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > (snip)Also, he pushed through the bushes between the railing and the drop before the moat. Probably those bushes were not as dense and thorny as they could have been. Otherwise, I see no flaws here.(snip) OSHA requirements for a fall protection barrier guarding a drop of more than four feet are for the top rail to be 42" inches from ground height and having a mid-rail and a toe board. Three feet wouldn’t pass that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/199 "2016-05-31T13:56:52Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Huge numbers of kids walk on sidewalks and ride on subways to get to zoos every day. Shockingly, there are _no barriers at all_ keeping them from plunging in front of the cars and trains. :rolleyes: A road is not billed as a family recreational attraction venue; it lacks an entrance fee. Shockingly, different standards apply to different situations. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046/200 "2016-05-31T14:01:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Where was the “barrier which would be capable of restraining children from falling” in this case? The fence! No one is ever going over that edge because of an inadvertent false step. A much higher safety standard than the public sidewalks and train platforms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorilla-shot-to-save-young-boy/756046.md?page=11)