# Gorsuch confirmation hearing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653 "2017-03-20T22:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/441 "2017-03-29T16:18:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IMO, it’s surprising but not so shocking. These are a very small number of cases. I would guess these are all unique special circumstances, e.g. when there’s no where else for the kid to live and/or comes from a cultural background where these are accepted. There were 163 13-15 year-old marriages in NJ alone in an eight-year period. That’s small compared to all marriages, but maybe not as small as some would expect. They involve children from many different cultural backgrounds. Obviously, “cultural background[s] where these are accepted” includes both cultures primarily based in other countries as well as cultures primarily based in the U.S., including in particular certain Christian and Jewish communities. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/442 "2017-03-29T16:20:11Z")
I’m going to take the controversial position against child marriage. I’m against any marriage until the age of majority or emancipation. Not cool at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/443 "2017-03-29T16:51:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then he needs to marry someone who will clean it for him. My wife has already offered up dire prophecies about the unlikelihood of such a meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/444 "2017-03-29T17:00:16Z")
Maturity is very much affected by cultural expectations. In a culture where people are expected to mature earlier, they will. In a culture where they’re expected to remain children for longer, they will do that too. Obviously there are limits. But you can’t extrapolate from the maturity level of someone from one culture to someone from a very different culture where the maturity expectations are very different. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/445 "2017-03-29T17:47:33Z")
Yes there are limits. I once heard a story about an 11 year old who stayed in her marriage for candy. Pretty sure she hadn’t matured enough for marriage. Anyways, if anyone is interested here’s a short BBC article discussing the issue Europe is facing: [Migrant child brides put Europe in a spin](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37518289) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/446 "2017-03-29T18:17:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes there are limits. I once heard a story about an 11 year old who stayed in her marriage for candy. Pretty sure she hadn’t matured enough for marriage. I don’t think that follows. It’s worth noting that marriage itself means different things in different cultures. In contemporary Western culture it implies a great degree of independence and self-sufficiency, which is not necessarily the case in other cultures (possibly including early 20th century Morocco :)). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/447 "2017-03-29T18:25:47Z")
Oh, it follows all right but I don’t feel like debating the merits of child marriage. It feels pretty gross and I’d only do it in a situation where I thought it’d make a difference which is certainly not here. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/448 "2017-03-29T18:31:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If a 14 year old girl was “married,” to her 20 year old cousin under Islamic law in Syria, and then the happy couple moved to Bavaria, the 14 year old’s inherent value would be protected by: > > (a) leaving the lovebirds to wedded bliss > (b) separating the couple because Germany’s minimum age for marriage is 18, or 16 with parental consent > > So far as I can tell, the German federal court decision that recognizes the legality of that marriage and holds they may not be separated has been appealed by the city with no final decision yet, but I’m curious if you agree that 14 year olds married to adults in German in 2017 are having their inherent value respected. And I am told that child brides as young as 11 are similarly situated. Any thoughts on them? **Bricker** , you disappoint me, since normally you seem to actually read up on laws of the area before giving examples, in this one a German court ordinarily would have no problem; since the age of marriage in Syria is 17, the “marriage” would have been invalid where it was celebrated, there would be no question of “recognizing” it. (and FYI, Syrian marriage law is governed by a 1953 Statute, not “Shariah law”.). In this case there are other considerations, including the fact that its not always easy to determine the actual ages of the persons in refugee camps, and said persons have motivations to mislead and lie; and little chance of being caught, not like Aleppo Town Hall can easily provide records and birth certificates. I am very sympathetic to the idea that laws should be applied as written, even if they lead to a result you dislike, but you alway have to look at the circumstances of the particular case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/449 "2017-03-29T18:58:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > **Bricker** , you disappoint me, since normally you seem to actually read up on laws of the area before giving examples, in this one a German court ordinarily would have no problem; since the age of marriage in Syria is 17, the “marriage” would have been invalid where it was celebrated, there would be no question of “recognizing” it. (and FYI, Syrian marriage law is governed by a 1953 Statute, not “Shariah law”.). > > In this case there are other considerations, including the fact that its not always easy to determine the actual ages of the persons in refugee camps, and said persons have motivations to mislead and lie; and little chance of being caught, not like Aleppo Town Hall can easily provide records and birth certificates. > > I am very sympathetic to the idea that laws should be applied as written, even if they lead to a result you dislike, but you alway have to look at the circumstances of the particular case. My understanding (which admittedly derives from press reports, since my facility in German is non-existant) is that the court found as fact that the girl was 14 and the husband 20, and they were cousins. If they had a motive to lie, it’s unclear to me what motive they would have to lower their ages. In other words, to make the marriage legal under German law, they might lie to age themselves. So what are you contending that I missed, here? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/450 "2017-03-29T19:17:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My understanding (which admittedly derives from press reports, since my facility in German is non-existant) is that the court found as fact that the girl was 14 and the husband 20, and they were cousins. > > If they had a motive to lie, it’s unclear to me what motive they would have to lower their ages. In other words, to make the marriage legal under German law, they might lie to age themselves. > > So what are you contending that I missed, here? They are refugees and the “marriage” was infact contracted in a refugee camp. Refugees living, in camps often have motivations to lie, and give different lies in different circumstances. Sometimes a person has reason to give their age as younger than they are; under 16 females often receive help and aid not available to others or older than they are; men above 21 might be able to find work more easily, lie about family relationships, family groups find support more easily. I have spent several years working with an NGO which helps vulnerable women and children and some of them are Afghan refugees here in Pakistan. Especially with young persons, under 25’s, who will have no record of age or birth, it can be surprisingly difficult to acertain age and relationship. Famously, the Afghan Girl on National Geographic cover was arrested for [obtaining documents fraudulently; claiming two men were her sons.](https://www.dawn.com/news/1165626/pakistan-issues-cnic-to-nat-geos-famed-afghan-girl)claims which were accepted since they had no way of disproving it and if she had not been famous, she might have gotten away with it. Like you, I can only speculate as to the German Courts reasoning. But, the fact they upheld the marriage, despite it being _prima facie_ invalid in Syria suggests that their findings on age and family relationship was based upon the parties own claims and they themselves doubted their veracity. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/451 "2017-03-29T20:06:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Sometimes a person has reason to give their age as younger than they are; under 16 females often receive help and aid not available to others or older than they are; men above 21 might be able to find work more easily, lie about family relationships, family groups find support more easily. > Like you, I can only speculate as to the German Courts reasoning. But, the fact they upheld the marriage, despite it being _prima facie_ invalid in Syria suggests that their findings on age and family relationship was based upon the parties own claims and they themselves doubted their veracity. Thanks **AK84** , I’ve been following along and like **Bricker** trying to figure out what reason they might have had for falsely claiming a younger age for the wife. But the above makes it a lot clearer. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/452 "2017-03-29T20:52:08Z")
AK84, do you happen to know if Syrian law also allows judicially approved under-aged marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/453 "2017-03-29T21:01:36Z")
I could not have predicted the turn this thread has taken. Good job, SDMB, you never disappoint. heh. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/454 "2017-03-30T21:17:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m going to take the controversial position against child marriage. I’m against any marriage until the age of majority or emancipation. Not cool at all. Which are also legal constructs. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/455 "2017-03-30T22:38:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t know if it’s in the conservative gossip circle, and I don’t know of any legal marriages for 14 or 15 year old girls in the United States, although I concede that the legal system in several states could theoretically approve such a marriage with parental consent and judicial approval. I’m just not aware of it actually happening present-day, although that means little since I haven’t checked. > > But even so, my view of the two cases would still be different for precisely the reason that judicial approval was required. My mom got married to my brother’s dad when she was 13 or 14. We honestly aren’t sure, she can’t remember how old. My brother’s dad is dead and all of his family is dead, so we don’t have anyone to ask. I think it was 14 because she had my brother after she just turned 15. This was the 60s in East Texas. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/456 "2017-04-01T16:12:04Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Not everyone can live in West Virginia. Not cool. I’m not looking for a mod instruction, just asking for a modicum of respect. You wouldn’t say such a thing about blacks or jews, so I would just respectfully ask you not to stereotype people of an entire state based upon your preconceived prejudices. In response to the trucker being told to kill orphans and war widows, Scalia’s opinions are instructive. Do we really need to have a legal system that guards against things which will never happen? I cannot remember the case, but Scalia was responding to another Justice’s argument that a state legislature might make overtime parking punishable by life imprisonment. Scalia responded that it was a ludicrous argument as no legislature would do such a thing. If it did, then it would have the public support for such a punishment for _some_ reason. IOW, we have no reason to believe that trucking companies would order the execution of orphans. If we became aware of trucking companies doing such a thing, then Congress could pass a law to stop it. The Legislature passes laws in response to current evils to be curtailed. In the case of trucking companies, it forbid them from firing guys who refused to operate their vehicles in unsafe conditions. It failed to forbid them from firing guys who refused to stay with their vehicles at all times. As Gorsuch correctly held, that should have been the end of it. The courts are not my mommy to help me when people are mean to me: only when they break the law. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/457 "2017-04-01T16:34:10Z")
As McHugh and Murphy correctly held, Transam trucking did break the law. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/458 "2017-04-01T16:36:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As McHugh and Murphy correctly held, Transam trucking did break the law. Case closed. And now Gorsuch will be seated on the Supreme Court. Case closed. I can live with that trade-off. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/459 "2017-04-01T16:42:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And now Gorsuch will be seated on the Supreme Court. Case closed. > > I can live with that trade-off. Well, that’s reality whether you can live with it or not. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653/460 "2017-04-02T00:00:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The more I read this thread, the more glad I become that I live in a country that isn’t batshit crazy, and no longer live in the USA. > > Bit of an aside here, but here in Germany, our constitution, the Grundgesetz, has the following _core_ tenet: > > Any legal decision, any law, and any _application_ of the law has to first pass the muster, “does this respect and protect the inherent value of human beings” If that is the case (and I am not at all familiar with German law) then the courts have wrested the right of self control from the people. Such a statement about “respect” and “inherent value” of human beings is so broad as to mean what is in the mind of individual judges. Take an issue like abortion. If a conservative judge looks at the issue he might say that the unborn child’s right to life over the convenience of the mother is consistent with respecting and protecting the inherent value of human beings. A liberal judge might entirely discount the unborn child’s right as not one of a human being and cloak it in the mother’s freedom to control her own body. There is nothing principled about that type of system. You have judges making bald declarations about what is best for human beings without being grounded by anything substantive in law. That is the job of a legislature elected by the people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gorsuch-confirmation-hearing/782653.md?page=24)