# \[GoT\] If Jon is \[Something spoilery\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 9, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691 "2015-07-09T19:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/1 "2015-07-09T19:51:54Z")
…I will be absolutely shocked. The attack on Jon Snow by the Night’s Watch seemed like serious overkill (heh) to me, like the show writers had to ensure the viewers believed, without a hint of doubt, that Jon was dead and gone forever. I mean, how many times was Jon stabbed, 6? 7? And if you believe the writers would not be so ham-fisted, we all saw the betrayal by Ollie from a mile away 3 episodes from the season finale. I also don’t think it was a coinkydink that Melisandre showed up at Castle Black just prior to the attack. Add in the fact that Harrington has not cut his hair, something he has been dying to do for some time, and I think we have enough clues to at least consider Jon’s resurrection a possibility in season 6…unless of course he doesn’t actually die of his injuries. After all, as the episode faded to black, Jon lay dying in the snow, but was not dead. Then there is the AzorAhai prophesy, which I choose to believe refers to Jon. All of the above stated, you probably should take everything I have said with a grain of salt as I also don’t believe Sandor Clegane is dead and I am not so sure about Stannis either. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/2 "2015-07-09T20:41:35Z")
Agreed on all counts. But that’s a huge spoiler in the subject! Hopefully a mod can fix that… ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/3 "2015-07-09T20:43:02Z")
Do you at least believe Generalissimo Francisco Franco is dead? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/4 "2015-07-09T20:44:24Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Agreed on all counts. But that’s a huge spoiler in the subject! Hopefully a mod can fix that… Done. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/5 "2015-07-09T22:00:28Z")
Jon is not dead, but I’m sure that Paul is. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/6 "2015-07-09T22:26:42Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > Agreed on all counts. But that’s a huge spoiler in the subject! Hopefully a mod can fix that… > [@Miller](#): > > Done. Sorry about that. Guess I shouldn’t assume everyone has seen the episode or is familiar with the mythologies and theories. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/7 "2015-07-09T22:47:03Z")
Questions for those who’ve followed the background and theories of the books and the show much more closely than I have… If Jon is resurrected, does he find out that he is really Rhaegar Targaryen’s son, not Ned Stark’s and, does his resurrection pretty much clinch that he is Azor Ahai, or at least one head of the three-headed dragon? ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/8 "2015-07-10T00:10:42Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Questions for those who’ve followed the background and theories of the books and the show much more closely than I have… It is not a spoiler to say that what you ask has not been written or shown yet. So all of it is theory. Now are theories spoilers? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/9 "2015-07-10T00:27:41Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Do you at least believe Generalissimo Francisco Franco is dead? His condition is stable! ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/10 "2015-07-10T00:37:02Z")
I’m disappointed with the finale. If he’s really dead then the show is ruined. If he comes back, it’s a cheap trick that should be beneath this show. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/11 "2015-07-10T04:49:49Z")
I’m not sure why you guys are so sure Jon’s not dead. Martin has bumped off so many characters that seemed important. I stopped expecting any character to live after the Red Wedding. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/12 "2015-07-10T12:11:25Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > It is not a spoiler to say that what you ask has not been written or shown yet. So all of it is theory. > > Now are theories spoilers? 🙂 Just mentioning Game of Thrones is a spoiler, the way some define it. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/13 "2015-07-10T13:46:29Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Add in the fact that Harrington has not cut his hair, something he has been dying to do for some time, and I think we have enough clues to at least consider Jon’s resurrection a possibility in season 6 Um, he did cut his hair. Almost immediately after filming season 5. [He was seen with short hair back in January](http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/01/08/game-of-thrones-kit-harington-hair-spoilers/). He has also [stated outright that his character is done and he’s not coming back](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview), but some people still don’t believe it. Based on the books, I would think the warg option would certainly be the most likely. But people complained that since we haven’t seen evidence of his warginess on the show, it would be a cheap trick to have him suddenly warg now. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/14 "2015-07-10T13:57:32Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > All of the above stated, you probably should take everything I have said with a grain of salt as I also don’t believe Sandor Clegane is dead and I am not so sure about Stannis either. Sandor is absolutely alive, at least in the books it is clear that he is posing as the “septon” who says he buried the Hound. [Cleganebowl](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cleganebowl) is the one fanwank theory that I fully believe to be true. I don’t even necessarily believe in R + L = J, and most people seem to think that’s a fact. But Cleganebowl is happening, for sure. It _ **must** _ happen. And of course, Ser Robert Strong must lose! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/15 "2015-07-10T14:01:07Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Um, he did cut his hair. Almost immediately after filming season 5. [He was seen with short hair back in January](http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/01/08/game-of-thrones-kit-harington-hair-spoilers/). He has also [stated outright that his character is done and he’s not coming back](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-dies-interview), but some people still don’t believe it. Since he seems to have grown back his hair and beard, I think this was a very sneaky misdirect. There has to be a main character at the Wall to ‘tell’ the story of the inevitable assault on the Wall by the White Walkers; I think it’s extremely unlikely this is going to be Davos and Melisandre (now that Sam is on his way South). Plus, there’s no point to all the R + L = J hints if Jon is permanently dead. If he doesn’t turn out to be alive or resurrected, I’ll eat my hat. The same doesn’t go for Stannis, the Hound, or other characters that have died (or may or may not have died). ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/16 "2015-07-10T14:12:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Plus, there’s no point to all the R + L = J hints if Jon is permanently dead. There isn’t really that much “hinting” to that in the books, and less (read: zero) hinting in the show. It’s just a fanwank based mostly on Ned’s character rather than anything that was suggested directly. As for Jon, I don’t believe Jon is dead _in the books_, and [Martin has made comments which suggest he probably is not](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead). But I am not so certain with the show. In that same article, the showrunners take a pretty firm stance that he is dead and not coming back. Yes, they could be lying. But since I think that he’s going to warg into Ghost in the books, and the show hasn’t established that power, I’m inclined to believe he’s probably really gone. They wrote out Lady Stoneheart, so I wouldn’t put it past them to write out Ghostly Jon, either. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/17 "2015-07-10T14:28:19Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > There isn’t really that much “hinting” to that in the books I think that’s going a bit too far. There isn’t terribly much we know about the Tower of Joy, but what we do know seems to hint quite a bit. And, I think we’ve all heard the story that before GRRM let the showrunners film the show, he asked them one question - “Who is Jon Snow’s mother” - and they got it right. I’d imagine that that being the big question to allow them to do the show must carry some more weight than just… trivia. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/18 "2015-07-10T14:35:54Z")
Regardless of what may be true in the books though, it was never an issue in the show and someone who has only watched the show has no reason to know or care who Jon Snow’s mother may or may not have been. The showrunners’ loyalty is not to GRRM or to the book readers who I’m sure make up less than 10% (probably even less than 5%) of the show’s audience, but to the much larger audience that has never and will never read the books. The divergence at this point is strong enough that we have two different stories going. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/19 "2015-07-10T14:39:04Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > There isn’t really that much “hinting” to that in the books, and less (read: zero) hinting in the show. It’s just a fanwank based mostly on Ned’s character rather than anything that was suggested directly. It was hinted quite a bit in the books (“promise me, Ned”, among many other things), and a bit in the last season of the show (by Littlefinger and Stannis mostly). > [@](#): > > As for Jon, I don’t believe Jon is dead _in the books_, and [Martin has made comments which suggest he probably is not](http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/14/game-thrones-jon-snow-really-dead). But I am not so certain with the show. In that same article, the showrunners take a pretty firm stance that he is dead and not coming back. Yes, they could be lying. But since I think that he’s going to warg into Ghost in the books, and the show hasn’t established that power, I’m inclined to believe he’s probably really gone. They wrote out Lady Stoneheart, so I wouldn’t put it past them to write out Ghostly Jon, either. I don’t think the words of the showrunners have any bearing on what’s actually going to happen, since I believe they’d easily and happily lie to keep spoilers secret. But they don’t need to warg him to save him. Melisandre came back to the Wall for a reason – the writers didn’t have to send her there. She could have disappeared, or went to Essos to serve Daenerys, or any number of other places. If they sent her to the wall, that means she will be of some importance at the wall. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/20 "2015-07-10T14:40:09Z")
We shall see, but it’s fun to argue about it while we wait! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691.md?page=2)