# \[GoT\] If Jon is \[Something spoilery\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 9, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691 "2015-07-09T19:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/41 "2015-07-12T19:36:26Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Regarding Cleganebowl, how would that work in the show? > > The crown sentenced The Hound to death, even going so far as to offer a bounty to anyone who kills him. We last saw him begging Arya to kill him due to grievous injuries. > > Is the idea here that in the very near future (maybe a month?) Cersei will invoke trial by combat to get out of the religious trial, and then The Hound will just magically appear out of nowhere and with his death sentence magically lifted? > > Seems kind of ham-fisted. Cersei is already going the trial by combat route and will name Ser Robert Strong (i.e. Zombie Mountain) as her champion. That much is stated in the books and with the show ending on Ser Robert’s reveal, I am sure it will follow suit on that aspect (it’s also explained in the books that because she is queen regent her champion must be a member of the Kingsguard, and they specifically named him as the newest member of the Kingsguard). The mystery gravedigger took on a new identity when he metaphorically “buried” the Hound, so one possibility is that he will simply hide who he really is, as he’s been doing in the books. And he’s already serving the Faith so there’s a logical route there for him to end up volunteering as their champion. He probably won’t magically appear though. He’ll come to King’s Landing on a horse or some other non-magical means of transport. But a little bit of travel and potential espionage is not going to dissuade Sandor from such a golden opportunity to finally confront his brother in mortal combat. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/42 "2015-07-12T19:47:41Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Cersei is already going the trial by combat route and will name Ser Robert Strong (i.e. Zombie Mountain) as her champion. That much is stated in the books and with the show ending on Ser Robert’s reveal, I am sure it will follow suit on that aspect (it’s also explained in the books that because she is queen regent her champion must be a member of the Kingsguard, and they specifically named him as the newest member of the Kingsguard). Agreed. But my point is that it’s happening _soon_. > [@](#): > > The mystery gravedigger took on a new identity when he metaphorically “buried” the Hound, so one possibility is that he will simply hide who he really is, as he’s been doing in the books. And he’s already serving the Faith so there’s a logical route there for him to end up volunteering as their champion. He probably won’t magically appear though. He’ll come to King’s Landing on a horse or some other non-magical means of transport. But a little bit of travel and potential espionage is not going to dissuade Sandor from such a golden opportunity to finally confront his brother in mortal combat. There is no mystery gravedigger in the show. By “magically appear” I mean that The Hound would have to suddenly show up in King’s Landing with virtually no backstory how he got from there to here. Plus, if he shows his face in King’s Landing he would be put to death. I guess what I’m saying is that if the cult dudes present The Hound as their champion in the trial by combat _in the show_, it will be completely out of left field and pretty poor storytelling. Especially if he’s allowed to actually participate in the trial by combat instead of immediately being apprehended for treason against the crown. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/43 "2015-07-12T20:05:24Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > There is no mystery gravedigger in the show. By “magically appear” I mean that The Hound would have to suddenly show up in King’s Landing with virtually no backstory how he got from there to here. Plus, if he shows his face in King’s Landing he would be put to death. Right, but all it takes is a scene or two (it’s only a chapter in the books anyway) to show that hey, he’s alive and well. Plenty of time to have that before the trial happens. Say it goes something like this: > [@](#): > > EXT. SOME STABLES - DAY > > A humble brother of the Faith is feeding hay to some horses when he overhears a conversation and perks up his ears. > > BROTHER #1: “Hey, did you hear that queen Cersei is having a trial by combat?” > > BROTHER #2: “Yes, and by some black magic she has conjured the Mountain That Rides back from the dead!” > > BROTHER #1: “Who would face such a monster, though?” > > BROTHER #2: “Beats me, I sure wouldn’t want to fight him.” > > The hay-feeding brother looks up from his task to reveal… Sandor Clegane! … and scene. I’m sure it will happen almost exactly like that. 😉 > [@EllisDee](#): > > I guess what I’m saying is that if the cult dudes present The Hound as their champion in the trial by combat _in the show_, it will be completely out of left field and pretty poor storytelling. Especially if he’s allowed to actually participate in the trial by combat instead of immediately being apprehended for treason against the crown. Not in the slightest. They can’t put him to death if they don’t know who he is. Some facial covering, armor, etc. can easily deal with that. Alternatively, the Faith Militant has garnered tons of power. Even if his identity was discovered and Cersei objected, they could basically say “Oh, the Seven pardoned him. Fuck you.” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/44 "2015-07-12T23:08:17Z")
Jon Snow is not dead! [Despite what David Nutter says](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/reliable-source/wp/2015/07/12/games-of-thrones-director-to-obama-jon-snow-is-dead/), Jon Snow is not dead. Ok, so maybe he’s “dead” but is about to be resurrected by Melissandre. In that case, the show runners can claim they were technically telling the truth, after they bring him back to life. I’m not quite sure what the rules are regarding books vs. show. So, if you haven’t read the books, and you don’t want to know anything about them, please consider this a warning. I’ve read the books, and much of what I’m going to say comes from them. Spoiler Alert! * * * I firmly believe the R+L=J theory. It makes absolute perfect sense. Remember, the official narrative, that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen is questioned a number of times in the books. The more likely scenario is that the two ran off together. Of course, after Robert Baratheon became king, it’s not a story he’d want told. But Ned Stark knows what really happened. In flashback scenes, he talks about the fight against the King’s Guard at the (I forgot what it’s named) tower. After the battle, he climbs into the tower, and finds Lyanna in a “bed of blood”, and talks about a “promise” she extracts from him. What is the promise? Well, if she died in childbirth, the promise would have been to protect her child. Remember, this child - the natural son of Rhaegar - would have the lawful claim to the thrown. Given that Robert systematically kills or tries to kill every Targaryen he can find, the only way to protect the baby would be to keep the circumstances of his birth secret. Thus the lie that Jon is Ned’s bastard is born. It’s the only way Ned can keep him with him, and keep him safe. It also adds an extra layer of reasoning behind Ned’s decision to send Jon to the Wall, because the Wall, by tradition, is a place of sanctuary. The theory is supported by Mellisandre’s extreme interest in Jon. “King’s blood has power.” Well, Jon is - by law, anyway - the rightful heir of the Iron Throne, and he’s the grandson of a king, and the son of a Prince. Anyway, the point is: this is a huge amount of backstory for a character, just to kill him off midway through the story. And we need to think about the future: the title of the book series is “The Song of Ice and Fire”. The fire, I’d argue is Daenarys. She was “born again” in fire, when her dragons hatched. Who is the “Ice”? It’s Jon Snow. These two characters are going to meet up in the future, and their meeting is going to be epic. He is going to be one of the three that are prophesied (by Rhaegar, if I remember right), and he will most likely wind up as a rider of one of the dragons. The Night’s Watch is not long for this earth, I suspect, and when it’s disbanded/destroyed/whatever Jon will be free from his vows (including the vow of chastity). He and Daenarys will become rulers of Westeros, before the story is over. (There will also be a third, but I don’t know who the third is yet. Remember, though, that the Targaryens have a tradition of both incestuous and polyamorous marriage.) Furthermore, the Hound is not dead. The books make this almost blatantly clear: he’s “dead” only in the sense that he’s changed his ways and he’s now serving at a sort of monastary of the Seven. Although I hadn’t thought of this until I read it in this thread, the possibility that he’ll wind up fighting his zombified brother makes sense. I’m not sure about Stannis. The show departed substantially from the books this last season. It’s been clear for a long time that Stannis is not the “one” Melissandre’s looking for (it’s Jon Snow), but it’s entirely possible Stannis still has some part(s) to play, before he dies. From what we know of Brienne, I’d expect her NOT to kill a defenseless prisoner. Also, it’s possible he could be of some use to her: she still has to save Sansa. But I have no idea what the show runners will do. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/45 "2015-07-13T22:57:12Z")
My problem with the R+L=J theory is that why wouldn’t Ned at least tell Cat? She obviously thought Jon was a bastard and it was a source of friction. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/46 "2015-07-14T00:19:56Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My problem with the R+L=J theory is that why wouldn’t Ned at least tell Cat? She obviously thought Jon was a bastard and it was a source of friction. To me, it seems perfectly in character for Ned. We don’t know his precise reasons, but they might be along the lines of: 1. That’s what I promised my sister 2. I cannot ensure the preservation of the secret, unless I keep it a secret from everyone, even Catelyn ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/47 "2015-07-14T00:33:36Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Eh, not really. It’s mostly based off what, a single phrase uttered by Lyanna? Either way, I hope GRRM Josses the hell out of that theory in the next book. If I were him that’s what I’d do even if I had been planning on the fan theory from the beginning, just because I would like to see the virtual look on their proverbially smug, collective virtual faces when proved wrong. It’s based upon countless hints and clues dropped throughout all of the books, and it was the question asked by Martin to the show creators before they even started the show. It is basically a given at this point. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/48 "2015-07-14T01:57:46Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > My problem with the R+L=J theory is that why wouldn’t Ned at least tell Cat? She obviously thought Jon was a bastard and it was a source of friction. > [@Acsenray](#): > > To me, it seems perfectly in character for Ned. We don’t know his precise reasons, but they might be along the lines of: > > 1. That’s what I promised my sister > > 2. I cannot ensure the preservation of the secret, unless I keep it a secret from everyone, even Catelyn Don’t forget, Ned and Catelyn were newly married when he went off to war. He didn’t know her well enough at that point to tell her something this dangerous and trust her to not confide in anyone else. Also, if she knew the truth, she wouldn’t treat Jon like his bastard son, and that might arouse suspicion in others. He wanted her to naturally behave as if he was an unwelcome reminder of his infidelity. Yes, it caused friction, but that was the price to ensure Jon’s safety. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/49 "2015-07-16T04:17:27Z")
I agree with **camille** , **DigitalC** and **Acsenray**. Also, - spoiler alert! - don’t click this [link](http://www.inquisitr.com/2254250/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-theory-confirmed-spoilers/). The name of the tower I couldn’t remember is the “Tower of Joy”. Also, it looks like they may be brining in Lord Manderly. It’s about time! What a great character. ---
**Author:** ![Smid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Smid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/50 "2015-07-16T10:28:05Z")
A silly question though… With Cleganebowl… Why do people stick the word ‘bowl’ on the end of such things? Is it a wrestling reference that I don’t get because I don’t like wrestling? I never quite got the reason why journalists stick ‘gate’ on the end of things to make it a ‘thing’. With Watergate, it was the name of the place, it wasn’t a ‘thing about water’. Always seemed lazy and stupid to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/51 "2015-07-16T11:46:22Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > A silly question though… > > With Cleganebowl… Why do people stick the word ‘bowl’ on the end of such things? Is it a wrestling reference that I don’t get because I don’t like wrestling? > > I never quite got the reason why journalists stick ‘gate’ on the end of things to make it a ‘thing’. With Watergate, it was the name of the place, it wasn’t a ‘thing about water’. Always seemed lazy and stupid to me. “Bowl” is an [American football term](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowl_game) for an important game at the end of the season, from the cite of many famous college football games, the Rose Bowl (a stadium in California). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/52 "2015-07-16T14:18:32Z")
> [@Smid](#): > > With Cleganebowl… Why do people stick the word ‘bowl’ on the end of such things? Is it a wrestling reference that I don’t get because I don’t like wrestling? SuperBowl. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/53 "2015-07-16T14:29:38Z")
It’s “Super Bowl” and the use of “bowl” for important football games precedes the Super Bowl by a half century or so. It comes, as stated above, from the Rose Bowl game, whose name ultimately was based on the trend set by the name “Yale Bowl” (1914). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/54 "2015-07-16T16:26:09Z")
I thought it was because football stadiums looked like bowls. Hell, most stadiums really. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/55 "2015-07-16T16:29:45Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I thought it was because football stadiums looked like bowls. Hell, most stadiums really. That is the reason for the name of the Yale Bowl and stadiums that were patterned after it. But there are several steps in the linguistic process after that to get to Clegane Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/56 "2015-07-16T18:42:05Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That is the reason for the name of the Yale Bowl and stadiums that were patterned after it. But there are several steps in the linguistic process after that to get to Clegane Bowl. Exactly, and I, for one, am not seeing the connection. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/57 "2015-07-16T18:43:57Z")
I think it’s an idea that it’d be the greatest gladiatorial contest in fiction history - kind of like the Super Bowl of Trial by Combat. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/58 "2015-07-16T18:52:32Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Exactly, and I, for one, am not seeing the connection. Football games are played in stadiums that look like bowls. Through an application of metonymy, certain individual contests have come to be called Bowls. Some really important individual contests are thus named in the form (modifier) (Bowl). There’s the Super Bowl, the Rose Bowl, the Orange Bowl, Puppy Bowl, the Poulan Weed-Eater Independence Bowl, and so on. There is thus a cultural connotation of a major event from the construction (thing) (Bowl). If one Clegane fights another, that will be a major event in the form of an individual contest. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/59 "2015-07-16T19:31:02Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Exactly, and I, for one, am not seeing the connection. You’re not seeing the connection between one dangerous athletic competition and another dangerous athletic competition? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691/60 "2015-07-16T20:07:46Z")
Leave it to the SDMB to seriously overthink something so simple. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-if-jon-is-something-spoilery/724691.md?page=4)