# Got photographic evidence of plant gigantism in the Carboniferous period? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057 "2012-04-07T02:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/1 "2012-04-07T02:55:30Z")
You could look at the wiki on the [Carboniferous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous). Apparently there was so much CO2 in the atmosphere that plants (and also insects) went nuts. > [@](#): > > Amphibians, the dominant vertebrates at the time, fared poorly through this event with large losses in biodiversity; reptiles continued to diversify due to key adaptations that let them survive in the drier habitat, specifically the hard-shelled egg and scales both of which retain water better than their amphibian counterparts. > [@](#): > > The Carboniferous lycophytes of the order Lepidodendrales, which are cousins (but not ancestors) of the tiny club-moss of today, were huge trees with trunks 30 meters high and up to 1.5 meters in diameter. > [@](#): > > The Equisetales included the common giant form Calamites, with a trunk diameter of 30 to 60 cm (24 in) and a height of up to 20 m (66 ft). > [@](#): > > Cordaites, a tall plant (6 to over 30 meters) with strap-like leaves, was related to the cycads and conifers What I am really looking for is extraordinary examples of plant species that were gigantic to begin with. Something that would make today’s Giant Redwoods look like a matchstick. I assume we’d find such a thing in coal seams that were produced during this period but 1) Maybe fossil evidence is destroyed over such a long period of time? and 2) maybe it is far too difficult to capture these kinds of images when you are trying to excavate mass amounts of coal or 3) maybe the process of producing coal turns everything to mush regardless of the vast timescale afterwards? I could probably Google these topics myself but I think this could be fun to share and anyways I bet 'dopers will have better shots to share than I would find, if they exist at all. Got any? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/2 "2012-04-07T03:27:58Z")
Trees didn’t evolve until the Triassic period; the gigantic plants of the Carboniferous weren’t true trees, as wood hadn’t come along yet. The modern Sequoia is not only the largest tree known, it’s probably the largest tree that ever was, or ever will be. At that, aside from multi-stemmed vegetation like the aspen or certain fungi (I’m sorry, but that just seems like cheating), it’s the biggest thing that ever lived on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/3 "2012-04-07T03:36:01Z")
Sorry, I didn’t have a camera back in those days. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/4 "2012-04-07T10:44:20Z")
Trees are restricted in height because of the way they draw water up their trunks by evaporation in the upper branches. On a planet with Earth-like gravity and Earth-like atmospheric pressure, trees can only grow to a height of around 130 metres if they draw water up from the ground. see > **[What determines the maximum height to which vegetation can grow?](http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/41811)** > > Ask questions on any topic, get real answers from real people. Have a question? Ask it. Know an answer? Share it. > [@](#): > > Several calculations have come up with the biomechanical limit of 130 meters height, absolute maximum, for the flow of water to be maintained to the top of the plant under ideal conditions with those mechanisms, and that does indeed seem to be the top height any tree can possibly achieve (most are under 120 m, even redwoods). so even the largest Carboniferous trees would not be much bigger than today’s trees, if they even got that big. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/5 "2012-04-07T17:23:59Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > You could look at the wiki on the [Carboniferous](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous). Apparently there was so much CO2 in the atmosphere that plants (and also insects) went nuts. Minor nitpick, but it was the increased level of oxygen (around 35% compared to 21% today), not CO2, that lead to insect gigantism. Also, as already explained, the biggest plants probably weren’t any bigger than the largest plants today, but they did probably grow faster, thus more food available for animals (assuming that unlike today, more CO2 didn’t lead to [lower levels of nutrients](http://www.ecogeek.org/weird-stuff/3169-unexpected-consequence-increased-co2-could-affect-), but the plants were different then). ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/6 "2012-04-08T16:48:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t have a camera back in those days. Couldn’t you have borrowed one? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/7 "2012-04-09T14:03:26Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Sorry, I didn’t have a camera back in those days. Well… what I had in mind would be examples of odd ancient plants found in coal deposits. Surely something like that must have survived and someone must have snapped some photos- I assume that is how we know about the plant life of the period in the first place. But I don’t know much about it, I may just be fantasizing about enormous plants. It almost sounds like the answer is ‘no’ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/8 "2012-04-09T14:04:51Z")
> [@Michael63129](#): > > Minor nitpick, but it was the increased level of oxygen (around 35% compared to 21% today), not CO2, that lead to insect gigantism. Got any photos of those? ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/9 "2012-04-09T18:46:25Z")
[Photo of a fossil of a horsetail spp. that may have reached as much as 30 ft tall](http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/mazon_creek/gallery.php?RollID=roll01&FrameID=calamites_big) [Photo of a large club moss fossil that may have reached - large club mosses may have reached over 100 ft high in the Carboniferous](http://rvmg.blogspot.com/2011/09/giant-club-moss.html) [This includes a Lepidolphyllum fossil of a large leaf from trees that reached over 100 ft high](http://www.onlythebestfossils.com/mazon-creek---illinois.html) Are those the kind of photos you’re looking for? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/10 "2012-04-09T19:19:10Z")
Here’s an [amazing pic](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kiZjsFy83gQ/T0Lf6-1rsKI/AAAAAAAAKJM/GR-bbk99aZw/s1600/Veriforman.jpg) of a species of veriforman that’s been extinct since the cretaceous period. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/11 "2012-04-09T19:58:57Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Trees are restricted in height because of the way they draw water up their trunks by evaporation in the upper branches. On a planet with Earth-like gravity and Earth-like atmospheric pressure, trees can only grow to a height of around 130 metres if they draw water up from the ground. see > [What determines the maximum height to which vegetation can grow?](http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/41811) This begs the question: what was Earth’s atmospheric pressure in the Carboniferous? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/12 "2012-04-10T03:11:15Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > [Photo of a fossil of a horsetail spp. that may have reached as much as 30 ft tall](http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/mazon_creek/gallery.php?RollID=roll01&FrameID=calamites_big) > > [Photo of a large club moss fossil that may have reached - large club mosses may have reached over 100 ft high in the Carboniferous](http://rvmg.blogspot.com/2011/09/giant-club-moss.html) > > [This includes a Lepidolphyllum fossil of a large leaf from trees that reached over 100 ft high](http://www.onlythebestfossils.com/mazon-creek---illinois.html) > > Are those the kind of photos you’re looking for? Yes, very nice! It would be better if they were dinosaur-scale fossils of whole giant ancient plants, but that may be asking too much. I’d really like to see a coal seam that amounts to a fossilized forest, but due to ignorance I don’t know if such a thing even exists. Pretty much everyone is fascinated by 300 million-year-old plants though, right? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/13 "2012-04-10T03:53:50Z")
One time I found a lovely fossil of a plant inside a lump of coal; the details were picked out in pyrite, so it looked like inlaid gold. Yes, there are sometimes plants preserved in coal, but usually very compressed and fragmented. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/14 "2012-04-10T04:02:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > This begs the question: what was Earth’s atmospheric pressure in the Carboniferous? I think the nitrogen pressure has not changed significantly since then, though I might be wrong; the partial pressure of other gases such as oxygen and CO2 may have changed quite a bit since those days, but nitrogen has made up the bulk of the atmosphere since well before the Carboniferous. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/15 "2012-04-10T06:26:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I’d really like to see a coal seam that amounts to a fossilized forest, but due to ignorance I don’t know if such a thing even exists. You’ll probably be disappointed by the pics, but here goes: [Penn Researcher Helps Discover and Characterize a 300-Million-Year Old Forest, Preserved Like Pompeii](http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/news/penn-researcher-helps-discover-and-characterize-300-million-year-old-forest-preserved-pompeii). This is from the Permian era, but that’s close enough to the Carboniferous era, geologically speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-photographic-evidence-of-plant-gigantism-in-the-carboniferous-period/618057/16 "2012-04-10T06:37:18Z")
:eek: Wow! What a story!