# GoT query: why does Petyr Baelish want Harrenhall so badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354 "2013-05-02T21:09:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/21 "2013-05-03T18:13:16Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Sunspear (Dorne) and Storm’s End (Stormlands) both belong, as does _Casterly Rock_ (Westerlands). You know, the Lannisters? You’re right- I just read them out in my head… duh. I shouldn’t have forgotten those two for sure! ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/22 "2013-05-03T18:16:53Z")
I thought to exclude Storm’s End because it is held by the king’s own family and not a separate house. But good call on Casterly Rock. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/23 "2013-05-03T19:43:40Z")
Rulership of the Stormlands _is_ a separate office from the kingship, with no built-in connection. Robert Baratheon and predecessors were Lords of Storm’s End before the Rebellion; the Mad King and predecessors were _not_. When Robert ascended to the Iron Throne, he passed Storm’s End to Renly (to the irritation of Stannis, remember). If it had been Ned or Tywin that ended up on the Iron Throne, Robert would have stayed at Storm’s End and it would have been one of those other castles and territories that devolved to a secondary member of the respective family. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/24 "2013-05-03T20:00:34Z")
Yeah, that’s true, okay. But in the context of sorting through the pecking order of the major houses, Storm’s End/the Baratheons are a special case because they also rule the seven kingdoms. Or at least are trying to. 🙂 Possible spoiler question below (I don’t know what has been shown on TV) With Renly dead and Stannis in rebellion, and Robert’s son on the Iron Throne, who’s in charge at Storm’s End now? Some Baratheon cousin?) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/25 "2013-05-03T20:07:07Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Possible spoiler question below (I don’t know what has been shown on TV) > > With Renly dead and Stannis in rebellion, and Robert’s son on the Iron Throne, who’s in charge at Storm’s End now? Some Baratheon cousin?) [spoiler]Stannis holds the fortress itself as a lone, semi-impregnable stronghold in the area. The impression I get is everywhere else has been overrun or submitted to Tyrell/Lannister forces. However as of late Book 5 someone else is scheming to make a grab for it. Regardless at this point Joffrey should be heir, unless Shireen is given standing and as the daughter of a rebel that is unlikely. No reason he can’t inherit that I can see. Robert parted with it as a matter of politics, but while the Targaryens didn’t need much in the way of crown lands ( cuz dragons tended to trump armies ) the same can’t be said for the “modern” throne.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/26 "2013-05-03T20:16:22Z")
Thanks Tamerlane, I do remember that now. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/27 "2013-05-03T20:26:51Z")
I thought Stannis was holding Dragonstone. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/28 "2013-05-04T01:13:36Z")
Actually, this sounds really interesting - because it sounds very well-researched. Extremely close to actual medieval practice, although the attitudes are not. (Even the War of the Roses wasn’t this complicated!) We often think of nobility as a “yes/no” concept, but it historically was much more fluid until the late Middle Ages, when it actually started declining in importance. We probably should think of social classes as a spectrum of prestige which can include everyone from brigands and mercenaries all the way to kings - some families made it the one to the other in two or three generations. The distinction between a wealthy Italian townsman who owned fine armor and weaponry (and trained himself in it regularly), landed gentry-Knights, and noble’s assistant who protected him on the battlefield was ultimately quite small. And any of these men might hypothetically contract with a greater lord to manage lands, or marry into a better family if they had prestige and a little money from prizes or businesses. In the late 12th century this has become a more regularized system with hereditary and non-hereditary Knighthoods, while most European states were more stable and less likely to slip out of the hands of a specific lineage. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/29 "2013-05-04T21:43:52Z")
And of course, dragons trump land. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/30 "2013-05-04T22:23:49Z")
Nitpick: It’s Harrenhal (no second “L”): [World of A Song of Ice and Fire - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrenhal#Harrenhal) > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > And of course, dragons trump land. And Dwarven-kingdoms. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/31 "2013-05-05T03:01:08Z")
Also, Harrenhall has no current claimant, so he doesn’t have to worry about the existing Lord of Harrenhall getting huffy and bringing an army back to retake it the way they might for, say, Riverrun, and it’s therefor sort of neutral. It’s a safe “house” one might say. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/32 "2013-05-05T03:26:00Z")
Also, it’s widely believed that there’s a curse on it, so not a lot of people are too eager to hold it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/33 "2013-05-05T05:24:08Z")
Baelish is one of the most powerful men in Westros, possibly right after the King and the Hand. That power is due to his position in the small council not in his own right and will end when he is no longer on the council. So His interest in getting the lordship of Harrenhal or even Winterfell if he can get Sansa. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/34 "2013-05-05T06:11:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Rulership of the Stormlands _is_ a separate office from the kingship, with no built-in connection. Robert Baratheon and predecessors were Lords of Storm’s End before the Rebellion; the Mad King and predecessors were _not_. When Robert ascended to the Iron Throne, he passed Storm’s End to Renly (to the irritation of Stannis, remember). If it had been Ned or **Tywin** that ended up on the Iron Throne, Robert would have stayed at Storm’s End and it would have been one of those other castles and territories that devolved to a secondary member of the respective family. Tywin would have forced Jamie to leave the Kingsguard and Sit at Casterly Rock. He would probably still Married Cersei to Robert to seal the Peace. And keep them apart. ---
**Author:** ![midnight-dreary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@midnight-dreary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/midnight-dreary)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/35 "2013-05-05T12:40:34Z")
Little finger always felt jipped that he didn’t have a title, and not having a title HAS negatively affected him in the past. thus, he wants a title, any title. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/36 "2013-05-05T22:23:18Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > [spoiler]Stannis holds the fortress itself as a lone, semi-impregnable stronghold in the area. The impression I get is everywhere else has been overrun or submitted to Tyrell/Lannister forces. However as of late Book 5 someone else is scheming to make a grab for it. > > Regardless at this point Joffrey should be heir, unless Shireen is given standing and as the daughter of a rebel that is unlikely. No reason he can’t inherit that I can see. Robert parted with it as a matter of politics, but while the Targaryens didn’t need much in the way of crown lands ( cuz dragons tended to trump armies ) the same can’t be said for the “modern” throne.[/spoiler] I would say Tommen, not Joffrey. Robert had two “sons”, I would assume one taking the crown would leave the other to take their traditional holdings after the previous lord had gone traitor. Of course this eventually becomes moot. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/37 "2013-05-05T23:36:13Z")
Assuming none of the events of the War of Five Kings has happened I believe that once Robert has granted Stannis and Renly titles and estates, then those titles and estates will be inherited by their own heirs. If Renly’s and Stannis’s lines fail then they revert to the crown tone disposed of as the crown sees fit. Rommel wouldn’t get any of it automatically. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/38 "2013-05-05T23:44:52Z")
Tommen. Not Rommel. Damn autocorrect. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/39 "2013-05-06T00:05:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Tommen. Not Rommel. An easy mistake to make. Tommen and Rommel are basically the same person. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354/40 "2013-05-06T01:28:58Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > An easy mistake to make. Tommen and Rommel are basically the same person. You know, we never _have_ seen the two of them together. And the resemblance is striking… [![](http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/843000/843157_1317245761900_full.png) ](http://images4.fanpop.com/image/polls/843000/843157_1317245761900_full.png) [![](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1l9d2F24m1qezho5o1_1280.jpg) ](https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1l9d2F24m1qezho5o1_1280.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-query-why-does-petyr-baelish-want-harrenhall-so-badly/657354.md?page=3)