# GoT (TV series) So, basically, it's all Robert's fault. Right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 6, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625 "2013-05-06T15:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/61 "2013-05-07T22:48:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not sure this fits the timeline as I’ve come to understand it—although I could be mistaken: > > — Robert and Lyanna are betrothed > > — Rhaegar “abducts” Lyanna. > > — Rickard and Brandon Stark go to Aerys to demand her release. Aerys responds by torturing and killing them. > > — Robert begins his rebellion. > > Feel free to correct. Or—if you like—start another thread on the timeline of the usurping of the Targaryens and the ascension of House Baratheon. The rebellion was definitely started after Rickard and Brandon Stark were killed. After their murders Aerys demanded that Jon Aryn turn over Ned and Robert, both of whom he was fostering. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/62 "2013-05-07T23:58:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I think Varys is right. Some of the Targaryans were good kings–Rhaegar might have been one, if he’d lived. Some were very bad; Aerys was one–but was he always that way? Some details of that rebellion remain obscure, in either source available. > > Even a good king can have a cruelly insane son. Nature or nurture? Nature. The Targaryans had more than their share, no doubt in part due to their habit of wedding brother to sister. Remember that Ser Barristan said as much to Dani when he sought her out – that he wanted to see if she was nuts before her served her. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/63 "2013-05-08T03:08:04Z")
Absolute monarchy can be a pretty good system of government - if you’ve got a pretty good monarch. But there’s no way to assure that you _will_ have one, and if you don’t, watch out. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/64 "2013-05-08T09:49:50Z")
It was Hodors fault Declan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/65 "2013-05-08T10:03:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Absolute monarchy can be a pretty good system of government - if you’ve got a pretty good monarch. But there’s no way to assure that you _will_ have one, and if you don’t, watch out. Technically speaking, the Seven Kingdoms are a feudal monarchy, not an absolute one. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/66 "2013-05-08T13:55:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Technically speaking, the Seven Kingdoms are a feudal monarchy, not an absolute one. Any monarchy where the king can have someone burned to death before his eyes on his sole say-so is pretty damn absolute. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/67 "2013-05-08T14:03:17Z")
And as a result of burning then, his feudal vassals rose in revolt. Anyone can burn people alive. An absolute monarch can burn them with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/68 "2013-05-08T14:08:24Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Good points, Ascenray. He also helped lead a rebellion and tried to buy the goldcloaks, too. Not very honorable then, either. Stannis is really the “Honor at all costs” guy in the books, and we see how he’s described and how he acts. Ned was definitely concerned with honor, but more concerned with doing what he saw as being right, unlike Stannis. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/69 "2013-05-08T14:16:19Z")
Before we go blaming Rhaegar lets keep in mind he knew what was going to happen, he knew about the prophecies and his wife was sickly and weak and could not have had more children. The dragon needed three heads, maybe he was not as rash and impulsive as we think. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/70 "2013-05-08T14:52:32Z")
He should have also known that Robert Baratheon wasn’t going to respond very favorably ;). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/71 "2013-05-08T16:42:02Z")
Well its Tywins fault. He should not have resigned in a huff. As Hand of the King, he kept the King in check, as is the duty of any good deputy. If he had not gotten all pissy over the whole Cercei/Rhaegar thing or Jamie in the Kingsguard or the whole bannerman tongue cutting thing, Rhaegar would have been King, Jon Targaryen would be the heir to the throne and we would be spared the mind numbingly stupid (except for the I-am-sure-are-bastards Arya and Brandon) Starks. ---
**Author:** ![TheFaerie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TheFaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFaerie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/72 "2013-05-08T17:15:51Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > …and we would be spared the mind numbingly stupid (except for the I-am-sure-are-bastards Arya and Brandon) Starks. Ooo… I hadn’t thought of that. Would you care to elaborate on this theory? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/73 "2013-05-08T17:26:53Z")
> [@TheFaerie](#): > > Ooo… I hadn’t thought of that. Would you care to elaborate on this theory? I’m guessing just because they’re the only Stark kids who aren’t idiots. There’s certainly nothing in the book or the series that suggests that Catelyn was cheating on Ned. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/74 "2013-05-08T17:49:33Z")
Were you hoping that Arya was a natural blonde or something? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/75 "2013-05-08T17:55:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well its Tywins fault. He should not have resigned in a huff. It seems to me that the relationship between Tywin and Aerys had been going downhill ever since Tywin’s marriage. If Aerys was already showing signs of going to the dark side, Tywin might just have been too much a target himself. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/76 "2013-05-08T18:34:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well its Tywins fault. He should not have resigned in a huff. As Hand of the King, he kept the King in check, as is the duty of any good deputy. If he had not gotten all pissy over the whole Cercei/Rhaegar thing or Jamie in the Kingsguard or the whole bannerman tongue cutting thing, Rhaegar would have been King, Jon Targaryen would be the heir to the throne and we would be spared the mind numbingly stupid (except for the I-am-sure-are-bastards Arya and Brandon) Starks. Aegon would likely have a stronger claim over Jon (official wife, older, etc). Though, as pointed out, Tywin may have been killed as well when he tried to push back against Aerys as Hand. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/77 "2013-05-08T22:56:41Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Again, this assertion that Ned was hampered by his dedication to “honor” is something I dispute. Ned did plenty of things that violate the strict application of honor. Among them: > > 1. Covering up for Lyanna. It hasn’t been revealed, but it’s pretty clear to me that Lyanna did something that wouldn’t look good and Ned is keeping a secret. He also let Robert believe that Lyanna was abducted and raped against her will by Rhaegar and that Robert was her true love. > > 2. Covering up Jon’s parentage and raising him as a bastard child in his own household and forcing his wife to raise her own trueborn children alongside her husband’s bastard. > > 3. Giving Cersei a chance to flee King’s Landing so that her children would not be made to suffer. > > 4. Consenting to declare himself a traitor and to declare Joffrey a true king to save his daughters’ lives. > > Ned, in the end, doesn’t make important decisions because of _honor_. He makes them because of things that we would consider very modern—_love_, _sympathy_, _protecting the innocent_. > > Ned is in a way an embodiment of the Father of the Seven Gods—a protector. He’s not a rock-headed adherent to notions of honor. He’s a humanist, a softie. Some of those are definitely honor, though For instance, 3, because killing women and children isn’t honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/78 "2013-05-08T23:14:16Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Some of those are definitely honor, though > > For instance, 3, because killing women and children isn’t honorable. I flatly reject that. There is no rule of honor that says that a traitor gets to go free just because she’s a woman. Honor and duty would require a traitor (an adulterous queen) to be seized and charged. It would also require that the king be allowed to determine what happens to the children. Ned did what he did out of sympathy and compassion, and that’s what he tells himself. He is violating his duty and his honor to do so, and he knows that if it works, he will be denounced for it. To the extent that he does adhere to some code of honor, it’s not a blind honor that he’s been taught. Ned examines every decision and every act and decides independently whether it is right or wrong. Frequently, his decisions work out to his disadvantage, but (1) he recognizes that he makes mistakes and (2) he is willing to suffer the consequences—at least for himself—when he chooses to do what he thinks is right. Now that might fit under a general heading of “honor,” but Ned exercises a very modern form of morality. He’s not a dumb honor-robot as is often made out. ---
**Author:** ![Shooby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Shooby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shooby)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/79 "2013-05-09T01:06:24Z")
I love how well put together this series is such that the events of 15 years before the actual narrative, revealed in bits and pieces, is consistent and deep enough for people to analyze to this extent. Things go off the rails a bit in books 4 and 5, but Martin really did an amazing job with the first 3 novels. As to the topic of the thread, it seems that you can blame the silly War of the 5 Kings on any number of people: - **Aerys** for being a crazy homicidal maniac king that burns high lords for fun and induces rebellion in the first place - **Robert** for being an irresponsible king and husband that drives Cersei to not bear legitimate children and eventually paving the way for his own demise. - **Rhaegar** for not taking Aerys out of power earlier. Also for having that romance with Lyanna that spawned Robert’s Rebellion, which potentially prevented him from dealing with Aerys himself - **Jon Arryn** for sticking his nose where it doesn’t really need to be - no incest research means none of the fallout, which means no war. - **Ned Stark** for a) following the thread of incest research too far b) completely bungling the advantage he had with Renly in taking control of KL after Robert died c) holding out for Stannis, which alienated both Renly and Littlefinger - **Catelyn** for seizing Tyrion like an idiot - **Cersei** for not having legitimate children. She could have still banged Jaime on the side but bore some real Baratheon babies too. Also for getting Robert killed. - **Jaime and Cersei** for not finding a more discreet place to fuck, which led to Bran watching, causing the whole chain of events that had Catelyn seizing Tyrion -\*\* Bran\*\* for being a little monkey climber that didn’t listen to his mommy telling him it was dangerous (the night is dark and full of Lannisters) - **Littlefinger** for aiding in all of the various plots, including Jon Arryn’s death (probably), Ned’s beheading (probably) and betraying Ned in the first place - **Joffrey** for being a little shit and beheading Ned, causing the North to double down on the war effort (a banished Ned would probably have Robb just suing for peace + prisoner exchange at some point) - **Stannis** for being too proud to support Renly, despite Renly being a a decent human who had way more support. If the Baratheon brothers had united, the war would have been over just as soon as it began. Hell, even if Stannis had stayed out and not sent the shadow queef assassin after him, the war would have effectively been over as well. - **Renly** for not accepting Stannis’ claim and vying for the crown himself. If he had put his Tyrell friends under Stannis’ banner, again, it would have been game over. A lot of people had the opportunity to either prevent the war (though perhaps not realizing it of course) or severely limit its scope. But since people are flawed, emotional, ambitious bastards, clusterfuckery happens. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625/80 "2013-05-09T05:54:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m guessing just because they’re the only Stark kids who aren’t idiots. There’s certainly nothing in the book or the series that suggests that Catelyn was cheating on Ned. True. However, Sansa thought Arya was a bastard because she resembled Jon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/got-tv-series-so-basically-its-all-roberts-fault-right/657625.md?page=5)