# Gotcha cams at stoplights, etc. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621 "2012-07-08T19:34:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_is_the_new_Analog)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/21 "2012-07-09T00:21:45Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > What do they look like? The new traffic lights here have little tube-shaped cameras on the arms that hold the lights, but they’re definitely not enforcement cameras (which are banned by the city charter). The little tube-shaped cameras on the arms in my part of Florida are for traffic control - they are monitoring traffic patterns. The red light cameras are on polls about ten feet off the intersection. You may be able to see where the flashes come from when they ‘catch’ someone. -D/a ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/22 "2012-07-09T01:11:50Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > In Montana, it’s generally been suggested they violate the right to privacy in our state constitution, but its never been tested because the legislature passed a law against them a few years back. How can your privacy rights be violated when you are on a public street? ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/23 "2012-07-09T01:54:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Personally, my belief has always been that if you don’t want to be ticketed for speeding or running red lights, the best option available to you, as a citizen, is to not speed or run red lights. Most of the complaints about the cameras seem to revolve around people who are mad because they got caught breaking the law, and they’d have gotten away with it if not for those meddling cameras. Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/24 "2012-07-09T01:57:09Z")
There are Federal regulations for the minimum period of time that a light must remain yellow, set according to the speed limit. In several cases, it’s been proven that the timings were diminished, with the presumption that the purpose was to increase revenue. In more than one case, it was proven that the yellow lights were in compliance immediately before the red light cameras were installed. [http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/](http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/) In nearly every study undertaken, red light cameras have proven to increase traffic accidents above what they had been previously at that intersection. Many motorists speed up or brake suddenly to avoid the cameras, and accidents have increased against opposing traffic, perpendicular traffic and vehicles traveling in the same direction. Further, the types of accidents that incred the most, rear-end collisions, were 20% more expensive to repair than than right-angle crashes.[http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111025/10301416503/another-report-shows-redlight-cameras-increasing-accidents.shtml](http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111025/10301416503/another-report-shows-redlight-cameras-increasing-accidents.shtml) and [Red-light Cameras Increase Crashes, Florida Researchers Find -- ScienceDaily](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080311151159.htm). Despite the claims of companies that sell ticket cameras and provide related services, there is no independent verification that photo enforcement devices improve highway safety, reduce overall accidents, or improve traffic flow. When red light cameras are used to make money for local governments, these governments are unlikely to jeopardize this income source. This includes traffic-light synchronization, which is the elimination of unneeded lights and partial deactivation of other traffic lights during periods of low traffic. When properly done, traffic-light synchronization decreases congestion, pollution, and fuel consumption. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/25 "2012-07-09T02:22:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > How can your privacy rights be violated when you are on a public street? The right to privacy in the state constitution has been held to restrict police surveillance activity without a warrant or probable cause, even if the person is in a public place. The police here aren’t allowed to follow someone around without cause, nor can they, say, photograph every person who enters a house without cause. I suspect that if the camera thing actually went to the state supreme court, they might rule that since the cameras don’t actual take any pictures until the device senses that someone has run a light, you’re not actually being indiscriminately monitored, but I don’t know. Incidentally, some states have come to similar conclusions with regards to the cameras being indiscriminate electronic surveillance, but have only ruled that the police aren’t allowed to use data from the cameras in other investigations. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/26 "2012-07-09T03:33:59Z")
So can these cameras be jammed with a lazer, or do we have to go with the paint ball guns. Declan ---
**Author:** ![racer72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/racer72/32/3075_2.png) [@racer72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racer72)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/27 "2012-07-09T11:36:12Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > (I have been inclined to think the answer to this question was “none,” since everyone accused of a traffic crime, in whatever fashion, is pretty much automatically guilty whether or not he shows up in court (cop’s word against yours, you lose, that sort of thing), but I’ve heard anecdotal evidence of people successfully challenging these kinds of tickets.) > > And can one appeal a guilty verdict on a traffic citation _outside_ the jurisdiction in which the case was heard? Red light camera tickets are not criminal offenses in Washington, they are civil infractions, the same as a jaywalking ticket. What is criminal is to not take care of the ticket when you recieves one. There is no appeal of guilty verdicts in the state of Washington, that applies from traffic tickets all the way to many captial offenses. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/28 "2012-07-09T11:48:06Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > In a _criminal_ case, it might not, but my city got around that by putting “notice of liability” at the top of the tickets. Strictly-speaking, they were just notices that the city was considering suing you, and that they would settle for $100 to avoid going to court (where the fine was supposed to be $25 more, although the program wasn’t around long enough to actually get tested in court). Alternatively, you could explain to the city why you shouldn’t be sued, and one of the reasons was that you weren’t driving the car. (But you had to pay $100 to access the “hearing officer,” an at-will employee of the police chief, and you would only be paid back if the hearing officer agreed to drop your case. If he dropped it because someone else was driving, IIRC you only got your money back once the person you alleged to be the driver paid up.) This is the same situation in Houston, the ticket you are mailed is not strictly speaking a normal ticket but some form of private debt owed to the company who is acting as an agent of the county, and has been authorized by the county to fine people. You have no right to see a judge, but for the full price of the ticket you can speak to an arbitrator employed by the private company which operates the cameras. :dubious: I regard the entire thing as fishy beyond belief and half wish it would be addressed by the supreme court, and half afraid they would love it. \*My father got one of these red light tickets for a very ambiguous situation, he made a legal turn on red BUT at the time the light changed back to green his bumper had not cleared the intersection or something. But as it costs just as much to fight as pay…:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/29 "2012-07-09T11:49:38Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The right to privacy in the state constitution has been held to restrict police surveillance activity without a warrant or probable cause, even if the person is in a public place. If the city/state posted a police officer at every red light, 24 hours a day, specifically for the purpose of making sure nobody ran a red, would that constitute a violation of one’s privacy rights? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/30 "2012-07-09T11:52:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If the city/state posted a police officer at every red light, 24 hours a day, specifically for the purpose of making sure nobody ran a red, would that constitute a violation of one’s privacy rights? When it is now not only technically possible, but trivially easy, to have constant 24/7 video surveillance of all public spaces with the footage stored in perpetuity and have facial recognition and character recognition run on people and license plates…the concept of privacy needs some adjustment. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/31 "2012-07-09T12:02:16Z")
> [@grude](#): > > When it is now not only technically possible, but trivially easy, to have constant 24/7 video surveillance of all public spaces with the footage stored in perpetuity and have facial recognition and character recognition run on people and license plates…the concept of privacy needs some adjustment. Personally, i’ve never assumed that anything I do in a _public place_ is a private matter. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/32 "2012-07-09T12:08:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Personally, i’ve never assumed that anything I do in a _public place_ is a private matter. A good assumption, but I still think automated tracking and recording of every person’s movements throws the old rules out the window. Bit like a personal tail for every person, oh and the cop is taking notes too! Bath salts just become illegal? Bring me up every car that has ever been parked at the head shop, then make a note of it in case they are stopped later as they are likely carrying contraband. ---
**Author:** ![Shosy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@Shosy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shosy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/33 "2012-07-09T12:26:02Z")
Forgive me is this post seems to support one side in one instance and another in another instance. Like many of course I was exposed to traffic light camera enforcement in the late 1980’s in Europe. Now a (whatever town/small city) might have 2 police officers for 100,000 people, so at the time to me, it seemed like a great way to save money. In Germany, driving around (admittedly after some drinks), a traffic signal turns yellow and my reaction is floor it at 4am, my friends thought I was crazy. Of course I also thought it was crazy that there was no insurance coverage if you didn’t have your seat belt on. Now most red light cameras are, in theory, screened by real live police officers…supposedly. In practice how that is done I don’t know. One red light camera I was always annoyed with in spain is where the limit is 40kph, and it’s linked to a cross walk. It’s normally flashing yellow but if you exceed the speed it turns red, if you run it, you’re definitely going to get a ticket. Personally, I’ll agree that maybe a yellow light means it’s about to change, and if it’s red, you got your warning, don’t try and slip through. If we are worried about machine evidence, then we’ll need to throw out any machine gathered evidence, any video recording, picture or audio recording in any criminal case should be thrown out. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/34 "2012-07-09T12:40:46Z")
> [@grude](#): > > This is the same situation in Houston, the ticket you are mailed is not strictly speaking a normal ticket but some form of private debt owed to the company who is acting as an agent of the county, and has been authorized by the county to fine people. You have no right to see a judge, but for the full price of the ticket you can speak to an arbitrator employed by the private company which operates the cameras. :dubious: I regard the entire thing as fishy beyond belief and half wish it would be addressed by the supreme court, and half afraid they would love it. > > \*My father got one of these red light tickets for a very ambiguous situation, he made a legal turn on red BUT at the time the light changed back to green his bumper had not cleared the intersection or something. But as it costs just as much to fight as pay…:smack: You know, there’s got to be ways to make that company waste more money than it collects, or at least the county waste more than it gets out it. I wonder how much a FOI request costs them in man hours? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/35 "2012-07-09T12:44:48Z")
Is the act of running a red light any less illegal on the basis of whether it’s observed by a police officer or a camera, or on the basis of whether the ticket is issued by the city or by a contractor? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/36 "2012-07-09T12:47:33Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Is the act of running a red light any less illegal on the basis of whether it’s observed by a police officer or a camera, or on the basis of whether the ticket is issued by the city or by a contractor? Aside from the fact you’d have the right to argue your case to a judge, rather than pay the cost of the ticket to see a arbitrator employed by the company issuing the fine? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/37 "2012-07-09T13:34:08Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > There are Federal regulations for the minimum period of time that a light must remain yellow, set according to the speed limit. In several cases, it’s been proven that the timings were diminished, with the presumption that the purpose was to increase revenue. In more than one case, it was proven that the yellow lights were in compliance immediately before the red light cameras were installed. [http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/](http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/) Recently most of the red light cameras in my state were taken offline because they were found to not be in compliance with the law. I don’t know about all of them around the state but in my town it just happened to be a paperwork issue. The law here states that the timing of the yellow must be calibrated to the 75th percentile of vehicle speed through the intersection. Not the speed limit. So each intesection must be surveyed and the average speed calculated. The yellow light then had to be adjusted to the time for the 75th percentile which is usually higher than the speed limit. The lights in my town were found to be in compliance and put back online right away. I don’t know about others. > [@Shosy](#): > > Now most red light cameras are, in theory, screened by real live police officers..supposedly. In practice how that is done I don’t know. It is not just a theory. All violations are stacked up in a queue on a website. One of our traffic officers must review the video of the violation and determine if there was a violation. They must approve it and only then will a ticket go out. It is not a photo of the incident, there is video and good quality video at that. > [@Smapti](#): > > Is the act of running a red light any less illegal on the basis of whether it’s observed by a police officer or a camera, or on the basis of whether the ticket is issued by the city or by a contractor? Tickets are not issued by a contractor. They are issued by an officer. Like I said earlier its a different lower statute for getting caught by the camera. No points. > [@grude](#): > > Aside from the fact you’d have the right to argue your case to a judge, rather than pay the cost of the ticket to see a arbitrator employed by the company issuing the fine? Its a ticket issued by the court through one of our officers. If you plead not guilty it is heard in court in front of a judge. Since you can see the video online when you get the ticket you can judge your own guilt or innocence prior to coming to court. Of course all of the above is only in my state. It probably varies depending where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/38 "2012-07-09T15:25:14Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Recently most of the red light cameras in my state were taken offline because they were found to not be in compliance with the law. I don’t know about all of them around the state but in my town it just happened to be a paperwork issue. The law here states that the timing of the yellow must be calibrated to the 75th percentile of vehicle speed through the intersection. Not the speed limit. So each intesection must be surveyed and the average speed calculated. The yellow light then had to be adjusted to the time for the 75th percentile which is usually higher than the speed limit. The lights in my town were found to be in compliance and put back online right away. I don’t know about others. Correction: 85th percentile. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/39 "2012-07-09T17:36:12Z")
Yeah, it varies. I can sit in my office and watch car after car run a particular stop sign in full color 1080p CCTV video. But we don’t have traffic enforcement by camera here. We do have CCTV and ANPR cameras for other police purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621/40 "2012-07-09T17:39:04Z")
> [@greenslime1951](#): > > 1. What is the legality of having a machine accuse you of a crime? Has this been challenged in the courts? The machine is not _accusing_ you of a crime. The machine is providing _evidence_ - the _state_ is accusing you of a crime. > [@greenslime1951](#): > > 1. Does a person who goes to court and says a) the machine was mistaken or b) that wasn’t me driving the car have much of a chance of getting off? The camera’s photographs (and sometimes video) pretty clearly show who was driving. And unless you’re claiming they altered the video, your guilt is pretty cut and dry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotcha-cams-at-stoplights-etc/627621.md?page=3)