# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/201 "2014-10-15T02:30:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t have a problem with the Penguin evolving into the Lawful Evil force in Gotham, the implication being the Joker is the Chaotic Evil. I really like that idea, and it would show a depth in plot and scope usually alien to network TV. Any network, any country. I guess that sometimes you aren’t just a wiseass. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/202 "2014-10-15T03:35:29Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I really like that idea, and it would show a depth in plot and scope usually alien to network TV. Any network, any country. I guess that sometimes you aren’t just a wiseass. 🙂 Actually, my opinion is somewhat informed by some treatments of the Penguin that downplay the bird-obsession, trick umbrellas, and physical deformities, portraying him as Penguin-like primarily in that he compulsively wears a tuxedo, coupled with having (or at least trying to convey) an air of urbane sophistication. Robin Lord Taylor is playing his role as a bit too snively just now, but his Cobblepot is clearly an intelligent sociopath who recognizes the value of manipulation and snappy haberdashery. Somewhere around here, I have a trade-paperback containing the story from _Detective_ #473, in which there is a brief scene of the Penguin arriving at what was promised as an auction of Batman’s secret identity, staged by Hugo Strange. Penguin doesn’t know that Strange was killed in the previous issue (he got better) and no-one else is seen at the auction, though Penguin hears Joker’s maniacal laughter from elsewhere in the building and thinks “The Penguin fears no sane man, but the Joker is hardly that”, and decides not to wait any longer. It was a tad refreshing to see the character have an internal monolog that was rational, showing that among Batman’s rogue’s gallery, the Penguin is probably the sanest. Of course, if Taylor’s Penguin does climb to or near the top of Gotham’s organized crime and he dislikes the kind of chaos he anticipates (but to some extent is fanning) between Falcone and Maroni, I can’t see him tolerating a wild card (heh) like the Joker for very long. After the second or third instance of induced mass murderchaos in the name of comedy, the Penguin (if he was smart) would just take the Joker out himself, in the name of good business practices. Sure, the clown might be useful at times to flamboyantly distract police and chirop-themed vigilantes, but sometimes you just have to finita the comedy and give your pal an ouchie, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/203 "2014-10-15T12:26:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > among Batman’s rogue’s gallery, the Penguin is probably the sanest. Not that I think Penguin is nuts, but Batman has plenty of sane villians in his rogues gallery. Mr. Freeze and Catwoman come to mind. Well, the “tragic character that lost his wife to cyrogenics until the evil businessman pulled the plug” Mr. Freeze, not the “I like cold stuff” version. Of course, most of his villains are crazier than the proverbial rodent that lives in the outhouse. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/204 "2014-10-15T23:12:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Actually, my opinion is somewhat informed . . . And you lost me because I know next to nothing about Batman that wasn’t on the '60s TV show. HOWEVER, Fish’s new girl–is she going to be Harley Quinn? She has the legs for it and is a bit psycho. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/205 "2014-10-15T23:22:38Z")
Knowing little about Batman seems to help me enjoy this show, which is my favorite new one that doesn’t feature Karen Gillan in slutty clothes. I can make small connections to what I know, but what I know is not solidified like it would be for a longtime fan. I might even be having more fun than a fan. But I really like that “Lawful Evil force vs Chaotic Evil” thing because of living 80% of my life around Chicago. Like I said earlier, I kinda feel at home in Gotham. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/206 "2014-10-15T23:29:46Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And you lost me because I know next to nothing about Batman that wasn’t on the '60s TV show. HOWEVER, Fish’s new girl–is she going to be Harley Quinn? She has the legs for it and is a bit psycho. Harley Quinn is a psychiatrist (or is it psychologist? I can never remember which is the actual doctor) not a (horrifically bad) lounge singer. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/207 "2014-10-16T03:15:24Z")
In my theory’s defense, she had only been singing “for a few months,” and it showed. Anyway, I’m trying to lure my daughter into watching this show and she’s a big Harley Quinn fan, so work with me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/208 "2014-10-16T17:51:30Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Harley Quinn is a psychiatrist (or is it psychologist? I can never remember which is the actual doctor) not a (horrifically bad) lounge singer. A psychiatrist is an MD who has specialized in mental illness. A psychologist has studied mental illness directly, thought if they’ve gone as far as earning a Ph.D. in the subject, it would be fair to call them “doctor”. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/209 "2014-10-16T18:38:50Z")
Something Fish said about the brunette singer made me think “Joker.” I can’t remember what the line was, now. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/210 "2014-10-16T20:58:31Z")
After the fight, when the winner came up to Fish and asked, “So when do I start?” my husband, who is Doper Andy L, said, “She should’ve asked, ‘How do you feel about Monday/Friday absenteeism?’” ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/211 "2014-10-16T21:04:48Z")
Who is in control of the “Wayne Foundation” and all its cash at this point? 12 year old Bruce? Man-servant Alfred? Some boring lawyer we never meet? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/212 "2014-10-16T21:07:57Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > After the fight Which I can’t honestly say was all that impressive - she’s a lounge singer who beat up another lounge singer. It’s not like she took down a barfull of Green Berets. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/213 "2014-10-16T21:15:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Which I can’t honestly say was all that impressive - she’s a lounge singer who beat up another lounge singer. It’s not like she took down a barfull of Green Berets. I think it was more about her attitude than the fight itself. She wanted it more than the other girl, which was what Fish cared about. That and her demeanor before and afterward (not being bothered by having to fight for it) are what won her the job. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/214 "2014-10-17T12:18:14Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > Who is in control of the “Wayne Foundation” and all its cash at this point? 12 year old Bruce? Man-servant Alfred? Some boring lawyer we never meet? I think the comics answer is that the (somewhat corrupt) board of trustees for the Foundation run things until Bruce returns from his soul-searching as an adult and cleans house. I don’t know if the show will go that route - corporate takeovers are somewhat boring compared to crimefighting fisticuffs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/215 "2014-10-20T05:28:21Z")
I watched the first two episodes of Gotham…and loved 'em! I thought it was absolutely brilliant! Great characters, wonderful little nods to the long-time comics fans, super writing, great acting, fun! Alas…I got to the first part of the third episode… where the assassin comes in and sets a guy on fire …and I had to stop watching. I couldn’t cope with it. A beautiful TV series, but just too much for me. Doggone it. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/216 "2014-10-21T12:47:04Z")
Well, last night’s episode was merely OK for me. Spoilers below. One, Penguin is an idiot. Sure, let me tell my crime boss, uh, boss that I used to work for his arch-rival, who I pissed off enough to try to have them kill me! Either I’m the worst liar ever, I’m a plant, or I’m so untrustworthy you should kill me now just to save yourself the trouble down the line. On the plus side, Gordon finally got to tell someone about the false murder, which ingratiated himself to Maroni and got it off his chest. Which probably felt good. I wonder how much he will play Falcone and Maroni off each other since they both seem to think he’s “with the program”. I did like Alfred finally settling down and trying to help Bruce with his detective work. I also liked how as soon as they saw the gas, Alfred’s first instinct was to take his coat to try and keep the gas from Bruce. Loves 'im like a son, 'e does. Villain of the week was an idiot. Oh, I’m going to work on a super-serum for the military. Wait, I just developed a conscience about this - as if I didn’t know what I was getting into - and now I want to kill a bunch of random people to induce panic! That philosophy professor should have failed his ass hard back in undergrad. Not to mention if he could have just keep his little villain rant to himself he might actually have been able to poison a bunch of Wayne Enterprises duded - seriously, if I’m in Gotham and someone starts monologuing about how they’re going to get back at me, I am leaving the building immediately. He should have just said nothing and let the chaos occur. On the plus side, we heard about venom, which means Bane is on the way. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/217 "2014-10-21T13:59:54Z")
My daughter was binge watching _Gotham_ over the weekend and I saw all or part of everything aired to date. As a longtime Batfan, nothing I saw really offended my sensibilities. OTOH, I never had the impression from the comics or previous screen versions that Batsy was substantially younger than virtually everybody in his rogues gallery. Maybe it’s that the kid they have playing Bruce looks younger than the age he is playing. I don’t know how old he is supposed to be, I missed it if they said, but he looks like he is about 10 to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/218 "2014-10-21T21:20:43Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > OTOH, I never had the impression from the comics or previous screen versions that Batsy was substantially younger than virtually everybody in his rogues gallery. This is not true in Gotham, either. He is significantly younger than Falcone, Riddler and Penguin. The other two of his enemies we’ve met are Poison Ivy (younger than him) and Catwoman (older, but the same generation). There’s also been reference to Dollmaker, but we never met him. Of those three, Penguin and Falcone have always played significantly older than Bruce. That leaves Nygma, who is likely somewhere between 15 and 20 years older than Bruce here, and probably around the same age in most versions. So, we haven’t met the vast majority of his rogues gallery (no (confirmable) Joker, no Harley, no Two-Face, no Clayfaces, no Croc, no Mr Freeze, no Scarecrow, no Ra’s or Talia, no Ventriloquist, no Bane…), and of the ones we have, only one is notably older relative to Bruce than he would normally be. (The cops, however, are really out of whack with previous appearances - comparing where they are now to where they are in most ‘present’ portrayals, apparently Gordon makes it from rookie detective to commissioner without Bullock, Montoya, Allen, or Essen getting a single promotion.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/219 "2014-10-21T21:42:10Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > (The cops, however, are really out of whack with previous appearances - comparing where they are now to where they are in most ‘present’ portrayals, apparently Gordon makes it from rookie detective to commissioner without Bullock, Montoya, Allen, or Essen getting a single promotion.) Of those, only Gordon deserves a promotion. The rest are corrupt, stupid or lazy or a combination of those. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/220 "2014-10-22T12:51:23Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Of those, only Gordon deserves a promotion. The rest are corrupt, stupid or lazy or a combination of those. _Bullock_ is corrupt and lazy (and seems to be carrying the idiot ball in this series although he isn’t always presented that way). The rest of the cops mentioned are pretty on-the-ball, hardworking cops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=12)