# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/301 "2014-11-14T23:25:10Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I keep getting distracted by the context. Sure, there have been cities that have functioned to a degree despite widespread police corruption. Such as documented by Frank Serpico in NYC. But not for any really large city at this level of complete incompetence. Gotham would have been invaded by the National Guard or the Feds and taken over by now. It’s just not realistic to have a situation this bad. Gotham can be as corrupt as 1970s New York (or 1930s Chicago, for that matter) without being jarring because _everything_ about the show is a deliberate mishmash of styles and timeframes. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/302 "2014-11-15T00:13:11Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Background: Silver Age DC comics kid. Lot of Batman’s in the basement. Liked the Keaton Batman movies. In particular loved _Batman Returns_. Not a fan of the recent batch. _TDK_ was just full of stupid and I gave up on them. I’m not a big fan of TDK either. Too dark I guess. Batman is silly by nature and getting all serious and dark and brooding doesn’t really do it for me. > [@](#): > > Sometimes a good show, sometimes not. E.g., _The Mask_ was dreadful. While _Selina Kyle_ was good. > > Speaking of which. For me, this is the Selina Kyle show. When she is in it, it’s good. When she isn’t, not so much. And when Bruce Wayne appears … boring as hell. I don’t like Cat Girl much at all. I don’t know why she is even there. She’s all strong independent grrl power. Whatever. > [@](#): > > What does it say about a Batman franchise when the worst character is Bruce Wayne (and there is no Batman to contrast with)? This little useless twerp isn’t going to get more interesting after some boxing lessons from Alfred. As long as they keep it to a minimum, I’m okay with Bruce. More Alfred than Bruce though. The show is “Gotham.” It’s not Smallville Bat Brat as a youngster. I don’t need to see it. Don’t care that much. It’s about future Commissioner Gordon. > [@](#): > > I keep getting distracted by the context. Sure, there have been cities that have functioned to a degree despite widespread police corruption. Such as documented by Frank Serpico in NYC. But not for any really large city at this level of complete incompetence. Gotham would have been invaded by the National Guard or the Feds and taken over by now. It’s just not realistic to have a situation this bad. I don’t think a normal city can realistically produce a masked vigilante nutjob wearing his underpants on the outside. I’m okay with the noirish mish-mash of styles and over the top scene-chewing. I’m fine with the show being part “Rise of the Penguin” and Fish is deliciously evil. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/303 "2014-11-15T03:34:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Gotham can be as corrupt as 1970s New York (or 1930s Chicago, for that matter) without being jarring because _everything_ about the show is a deliberate mishmash of styles and timeframes. I mentioned earlier that, after living most of my life in the Chicago area, I feel uncomfortably comfortable in Gotham. I do wonder where they found an 80s Diplomat that hadn’t returned to the iron ore from whence it came. Magic of Hollywood, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/304 "2014-11-16T15:04:49Z")
On reflection, Alfred might indeed teach Bruce how to fight, but that’s not how Batman has to be able to fight. Toe-to-toe brawling is exactly how a stealthy vigilante _shouldn’t_ fight - he needs to use sudden devastating attacks and quick withdrawals if he wants to stay alive - so unless Alfred is going to impart the principles of Krav Maga, Bruce is going to have to branch out fast. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/305 "2014-11-16T17:44:29Z")
Ain’t Penguin’s mother a piece of work? I’d be interested in hearing _her_ backstory. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/306 "2014-11-16T17:58:43Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Ain’t Penguin’s mother a piece of work? I’d be interested in hearing _her_ backstory. It’s a tale old as time, I’m sure. Girl grows up in East European communist dictatorship, manipulates the dictatorship to take revenge on schoolmate, emigrates to America, marries, has a son, poisons her cheating husband with arsenic I assume… Truly a classic tale. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/307 "2014-11-16T18:25:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s a tale old as time, I’m sure. Girl grows up in East European communist dictatorship, manipulates the dictatorship to take revenge on schoolmate, emigrates to America, marries, has a son, poisons her cheating husband with arsenic I assume… > > Truly a classic tale. "My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we’d make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really. " ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/308 "2014-11-16T18:36:26Z")
“I am _not_ a bum. I’m a jerk. I once had wealth, power, and the love of a beautiful woman. Now I only have two things: my friends, and… uh… my thermos. Huh? My story? Okay. It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin’ on the porch with my family, singin’ and dancin’ down in Mississippi…” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/309 "2014-11-18T23:56:26Z")
By the way, that neck wrap “thing” that Mooney was wearing in last week’s episode was bizarre. Made me think of the crazy metal disks that poor Kevin Kline ended up wearing in “Wild Wild West” (I never saw the movie, but saw the ads). ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/310 "2014-11-19T00:13:34Z")
I found the Selena & Bruce show to be fairly tiresome this week, but it was somewhat redeeming in that it was the first time I felt like Alfred seemed pleased with Bruce exhibiting signs of normalcy. As much as I can’t stand Barbara, I thought it made sense to have her running off to where she did. Easy to slip back into old habits during times of stress, right? I’m finding it really, really difficult to believe that someone of Fish’s caliber continues to underestimate Penguin. Did he really fail to show any signs of cleverness during his time with her? Or is it that he is only now beginning to understand what ambition is? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/311 "2014-11-19T00:56:31Z")
Also not a fan of the kids’ show. If you’re going to do some pool training, is it that hard to change to a swim suit? Is this it for Gordon and Barbara? Don’t see why he should take her back at this point, except for the apartment. I don’t like those two “good guy” cops. They don’t strike me as all that good, and they’re best buddies with Harvey Dent, who is wasting no time revealing his dark side. It shows they aren’t that great a judge of character. What was Penguin’s job anyway? Fish has boy toys and a right hand man to do her bidding. What was Penguin’s position? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/312 "2014-11-19T01:12:06Z")
He just goes with the floe. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/313 "2014-11-19T14:46:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > If you’re going to do some pool training, is it that hard to change to a swim suit? That actually made sense to me: if you think you might someday be in a situation that requires you to hold your breath underwater, you probably also think that the bad guy isn’t going to let you put some trunks on first. Being fully clothed makes you heavier and more likely to sink, so it takes more effort to get back to the surface – using more breath, which you need to factor in. Granted, a chlorinated pool isn’t equal to a bay or an ocean, but the “clothed in the pool” thing didn’t bother me. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/314 "2014-11-19T15:06:07Z")
Penguin was just a generic lackey to Fish. He was a servant, rather than a right-hand-man or a boytoy. I think Fish just has him pegged as a servant boy that got uppity, and is failing to re-evaluate him with her new information. She didn’t even pick up when he dropped the lilac comment. Although, I have to say, the mob is doing a better job of emptying the city of criminals than the police are. Fish’s little war seems to be killing half a dozen mobsters an episode. I really don’t like Barbara, because she just strikes me as the person who always got what they wanted and now that they realize the world _isn’t_ their oyster, they turn into a whiny brat. Unfortunately, Jim seems smitten, so I see him taking her back over and over. Crappy thing of Montoya to do though - stealing someone else’s woman would not have gone over well if she were a dude, so I don’t think it should be any different since she’s a lady. I wonder how Gordon and Montoya’s relationship will change when he finds out. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/315 "2014-11-19T15:07:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t like those two “good guy” cops. They don’t strike me as all that good, and they’re best buddies with Harvey Dent, who is wasting no time revealing his dark side. It shows they aren’t that great a judge of character. As opposed to Gordon, who – agrees with Dent’s plan before repeatedly thanking him after saving the day with some much-appreciated help from Ed Nygma? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/316 "2014-11-19T17:23:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t like those two “good guy” cops. They don’t strike me as all that good, and they’re best buddies with Harvey Dent, who is wasting no time revealing his dark side. It shows they aren’t that great a judge of character. What we saw of his dark side (with a somewhat subtle, for this show, bit of foreshadowing, showing his left profile as he twisted his face into a grimace of pure rage) was in an easily explainable context (leaning hard on a suspect, which is SOP for the GCPD). It’s in keeping with the portrayals in some recent comics and _Batman: The Animated Series_, where he had existing psychological issues that he tried to conceal until they were brought roaring to the surface by the disfigurement incident. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/317 "2014-11-19T19:00:01Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I really don’t like Barbara, because she just strikes me as the person who always got what they wanted and now that they realize the world _isn’t_ their oyster, they turn into a whiny brat. Unfortunately, Jim seems smitten, so I see him taking her back over and over. Crappy thing of Montoya to do though - stealing someone else’s woman would not have gone over well if she were a dude, so I don’t think it should be any different since she’s a lady. I wonder how Gordon and Montoya’s relationship will change when he finds out. It might drive him to seek a relationship with Essen. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/318 "2014-11-19T19:03:19Z")
> [@FordTaurusSHO94](#): > > It might drive him to seek a relationship with Essen. I am equal parts disturbed and trying to figure out who would be the top in that relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/319 "2014-11-19T22:32:29Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I found the Selena & Bruce show to be fairly tiresome this week… Ditto. While shoehorning all of Batdude’s future nemeses into every episode has been getting a bit eye-rolling, it is in fact a big part of the show’s premise, so I’ve been going with it. But – Catwoman lived in Bruce Wayne’s house when she was a kid?? Come ON. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/320 "2014-11-20T02:22:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As opposed to Gordon, who – agrees with Dent’s plan before repeatedly thanking him after saving the day with some much-appreciated help from Ed Nygma? Well, Gordon was highly skeptical at first and only relented after Montoya and whatshisface were gushing about him. Gordon doesn’t have a lot of friends to trust right now. Montoya for sure is a sleazebag. You don’t sleep with another cop’s girlfriend, and you really shouldn’t take back the druggy alcoholic who is slipping downhill. I don’t have much on her partner, but he & Montoya are besties, so guilt by association. 🙂 > [@FordTaurusSHO94](#): > > It might drive him to seek a relationship with Essen. Do not want. I can’t think of anyone on the show I’d want him to hook up with. Also, just to be fair, he has to sleep with a man. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=17)