# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/321 "2014-11-20T13:18:26Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, Gordon was highly skeptical at first and only relented after Montoya and whatshisface were gushing about him. Gordon doesn’t have a lot of friends to trust right now. Montoya for sure is a sleazebag. You don’t sleep with another cop’s girlfriend, and you really shouldn’t take back the druggy alcoholic who is slipping downhill. I don’t have much on her partner, but he & Montoya are besties, so guilt by association. 🙂 > > Do not want. I can’t think of anyone on the show I’d want him to hook up with. Also, just to be fair, he has to sleep with a man. 🙂 Essen is a man. He is, in fact, Montoya’s partner 🙂 Montoya strikes me as a good cop but not a good friend. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/322 "2014-11-20T14:11:06Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Essen is a man. He is, in fact, Montoya’s partner 🙂 > > Montoya strikes me as a good cop but not a good friend. Unless I’m missing something, Sarah Essen is the captain, and Crispus Allen is Montaya’s partner. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/323 "2014-11-20T14:31:47Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > Unless I’m missing something, Sarah Essen is the captain, and Crispus Allen is Montaya’s partner. :smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/324 "2014-11-20T16:12:41Z")
Sarah Essen, in the comics, was Gordon’s second wife (after Barbara divorced him). So a relationship between them wouldn’t be exactly unprecidented. (She was later murdered by Joker during…No Man’s Land, IIRC.) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/325 "2014-11-20T17:33:30Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Essen is a man. He is, in fact, Montoya’s partner 🙂 > > Montoya strikes me as a good cop but not a good friend. > [@vislor](#): > > Unless I’m missing something, Sarah Essen is the captain, and Crispus Allen is Montaya’s partner. Whew. Thought I was losing my mind. I didn’t know who Essen was so I googled it and thought it was his captain. To have looked it up and still got it wrong was highly embarrassing. 🙂 Anyway, I suppose Montoya and Allen will be as nice as the writers want, and Harvey Dent has everyone fooled. I wonder if Dent will get to become a villain during the show, or he’s just another future character we get to meet early. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/326 "2014-11-20T18:19:57Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Anyway, I suppose Montoya and Allen will be as nice as the writers want, and Harvey Dent has everyone fooled. I wonder if Dent will get to become a villain during the show, or he’s just another future character we get to meet early. Depends on what you mean by “villain”. The history of Bruce Wayne and Harvey Dent being friends in adulthood prior to the business with the acid toss is a fairly significant part of the character’s mythology, so I don’t see them pushing that back into the current timeframe. They may, however, bring in more indications of the characterization I mentioned earlier, where pre-Two-Face Dent has some major issues that cloud and darken his judgment when under stress. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/327 "2014-11-25T22:54:38Z")
Best lines from the last episode: Eddie: “What kind of tool steals a yellow Humvee?” Joe: “What kind of tool _buys_ a yellow Humvee?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/328 "2014-11-25T23:32:14Z")
Man, the level of stupid in this last epi was crazy. Wayne Manor has no security other than a gardener and a butler? ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/329 "2014-11-25T23:57:44Z")
IIRC, there was a Batman villain called the Wraith, whose origin paralled Bruce’s, in that his parents were thieves who were shot dead by Jim Gordon the night the Waynes were murdered. It seemed like Ivy’s attitude was something like the Wraith’s, blaming the law for her father’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/330 "2014-11-26T00:19:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Man, the level of stupid in this last epi was crazy. Wayne Manor has no security other than a gardener and a butler? There’s a gardener? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/331 "2014-11-26T00:35:05Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > There’s a gardener? not any more… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/332 "2014-11-26T01:09:17Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Best lines from the last episode: > > Eddie: “What kind of tool steals a yellow Humvee?” > > Joe: “What kind of tool _buys_ a yellow Humvee?” That was from the last episode of _The Flash_. I am not anticipating a crossover. > [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > There’s a gardener? He’s pushing up daisies, now. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/333 "2014-11-26T02:18:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That was from the last episode of _The Flash_. > > I am not anticipating a crossover. D’OH! :smack: You’re right. I’m so confused … ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/334 "2014-11-26T02:27:46Z")
Flash could totally rid Gotham of crime in five seconds. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/335 "2014-11-26T12:56:52Z")
I don’t know why but even though this was not a great episode, it kept me interested and went fast, a sign for me that I enjoyed it. But, yes, all involved are stupid. Wayne Manor is not next to some highway, it’s off on its own. The fact that the gardener even tried to help her instead of immediately running was foolish. And why didn’t he have a walkie talkie? It’s unfortunately canon but I never understood why Wayne Manor, when Bruce was a kid, didn’t have a full staff of cooks, maids, gardeners, etc. I get why not when he’s older but Alfred should be more of a chamberlain at this point. I did like the adventures of Kat and B, though, to give Bruce a bit of that side of it. I even liked Ivy, even if they have mangled that story. Funny that Ivy makes others feel uncomfortable. OMG, the terrible acting by the lead assassin! WTF was someone thinking casting her? Her fighting was awful, her lines terrible! When she did that awful round house kick, I gave up on her abilities. The other gem was that I did like that Gordon didn’t shirk from calling it in when his gun was used. And the mayor couldn’t get rid of him but could put in as a security guard was good to me. So, a train wreck, to be sure, but one I watched until the end of it. vislor ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/336 "2014-11-26T16:39:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > He just goes with the floe. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/337 "2014-11-26T16:53:57Z")
When Jim with his cheesy pursed-lip tough-guy growl talks to Dent with his cheesy wide-eyed tortured delivery, I want to crawl into a hole. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/338 "2014-11-26T16:56:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t like Cat Girl much at all. I don’t know why she is even there. She’s all strong independent grrl power. Whatever. The “cat-like” posing and other mannerisms that have been a hallmark of every live action Catwoman are even more ridiculous when done by a little girl. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/339 "2014-11-26T17:54:06Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > Wayne Manor is not next to some highway, it’s off on its own. The fact that the gardener even tried to help her instead of immediately running was foolish. And why didn’t he have a walkie talkie? Is this the first time in anything reasonably canonical that we’ve seen ANY second staff person at Wayne Manor? I can’t think of a prior example. > [@](#): > > It’s unfortunately canon but I never understood why Wayne Manor, when Bruce was a kid, didn’t have a full staff of cooks, maids, gardeners, etc. I get why not when he’s older but Alfred should be more of a chamberlain at this point. No, as he was careful to point out, he is a butler, which is the head of all the household staff (except sometimes cooks). If his sole purpose was to take care of Bruce, he’d be a valet - which he haughtily dimissed. > [@](#): > > OMG, the terrible acting by the lead assassin! WTF was someone thinking casting her? Her fighting was awful, her lines terrible! When she did that awful round house kick, I gave up on her abilities. She reminded me of some of the fifth-raters that Babylon 5 used. I can only assume she has… other talents. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/340 "2014-11-26T18:25:41Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > There’s a gardener? > [@simster](#): > > not any more… A gardener that, one presumes, Bruce and Alfred knew and trusted, maybe even liked. But hey, all’s well that ends well, I guess. Bruce is safe, and Selina even returned the jewelry! We can laugh about it now! …Too bad about ol’ Jerry, though… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=18)