# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/541 "2015-04-27T18:47:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If this kid doesn’t start lifting weights or throwing punches or toughening up _somehow_ soon, there’s no plausible way he turns into Batman. Wow. Thanks! That nailed it on the head for me what was missing with him and it’s this. he doesn’t have to be a perfect fighter. He _should_ come home bloody and messed up but he won. I think that would also help him gain some confidence he’s going to need as well. I’m still torn on the show. Yes, comic book story and all of that, but it still seems as if it’s too early or we don’t get that “normal” people aren’t leaving in droves because I don’t know how much more corruption we can have and still have Gotham be a viable place to live. At this rate, this universe won’t have a Gotham for Batman to save! As much as I would hate to lose a few of the younger actors, what the series needs, well what I want, is for it to skip several years between seasons, and maybe expand out when Bruce was doing vigilante stuff but not in a full costume. He was just in generic biker or drifter clothes. I think that would really help the show. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/542 "2015-04-27T23:28:15Z")
> [@vislor](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > If this kid doesn’t start lifting weights or throwing punches or toughening up somehow soon, there’s no plausible way he turns into Batman. > > Wow. Thanks! That nailed it on the head for me what was missing with him I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: David Mazouz only has maybe two decades left before he needs to be as big and tough as Michael Keaton circa 1989. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/543 "2015-04-28T11:17:33Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: David Mazouz only has maybe two decades left before he needs to be as big and tough as Michael Keaton circa 1989. Given his age and his (lack of) height, two decades wouldn’t help. I really don’t expect nor need Batman in the series. It’s not Batman’s story. Many cities have had mob shooting wars and serial killers, including my own when I was a child. These wasn’t a mass exodus and we’re still here. Gotham is even based on us. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/544 "2015-04-28T14:14:58Z")
We (and Bruce) meet Lucius Fox. I assume Penguin’s plan is to emerge from the vacuum after the war weakens both sides - but I’m not sure how he will avoid being caught in the cross fire. Brian ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/545 "2015-04-28T18:29:16Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > I was thinking that, by taking out her eye, Fish Mooney had [taken a level of badass](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass) like Odin or Col. Tigh. Eyepatch Mooney would have been interesting. Alas it was not to be. > > In other Fish Mooney news ( **BIG BIG SPOILERS - you have been warned!** ): > > [spoiler]Jada Pinkett Smith has said that she will not be returning for next season. > > source: [Jada Pinkett Smith Has Some Surprising News About Her Role on ‘Gotham’](http://extratv.com/2015/03/06/jada-pinkett-smith-has-some-surprising-news-about-her-role-on-gotham/) > [/spoiler] [spoiler]So just have her get in a plane crash, or spray acid on her, or something else that would require reasonably extensive plastic surgery. Or, as a nod to the original TV series (sort of), just replace her. It’s not as if the original series had the same actress playing Catwoman, or the same actor playing The Riddler (or Mr. Freeze), the entire time…[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/546 "2015-04-28T19:30:04Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > We (and Bruce) meet Lucius Fox. > > I assume Penguin’s plan is to emerge from the vacuum after the war weakens both sides - but I’m not sure how he will avoid being caught in the cross fire. > > Brian I missed a few moments here and there; is Lucias Fox the gentleman Bruce was talking to at Wayne Industries who told/ hinted that his father had some secrets(I believe he said Mr. Wayne was a “stoic”)? Would this be the character that Morgan Freeman plays in the recent Batman movies? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/547 "2015-04-28T19:32:58Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I missed a few moments here and there; is Lucias Fox the gentleman Bruce was talking to at Wayne Industries who told/ hinted that his father had some secrets(I believe he said Mr. Wayne was a “stoic”)? Would this be the character that Morgan Freeman plays in the recent Batman movies? yes and yes ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/548 "2015-04-29T15:01:32Z")
The bondage room’s walls are covered with weapons. Pick one up and bash the creep’s skull in while his back is turned, already. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/549 "2015-04-29T19:09:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The bondage room’s walls are covered with weapons. Pick one up and bash the creep’s skull in while his back is turned, already. Seriously. Or take the glass of “water” he handed you and smash his face. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/550 "2015-04-29T20:18:45Z")
When he demands “tell me who to kill”, why doesn’t she name Falcone, with whom she had a recent and unpleasant experience? The Stockholminess of that subplot is irritating, we should have seen her seeming to embrace her captivity, then grabbing a weapon and hacking the creep up (with clear borderline-sexual enjoyment) and _then_ Jim shows up to “rescue” her. Instead, I now feel cemented in my indifference as to whether or not the Barbara character survives, except to the extent that she may draw screentime away from more interesting storylines. Related is my annoyance of them continuing to use that crappy sketch (coupled with someone recognizing the person from an encounter nine years earlier). They _do_ have a picture of the guy, with his pre-surgery face. Get some computer nerd to copy and flip the undamaged side and prepare a useful symmetrical composite, or since this universe evidently still uses flashbulbs, does digital graphic processing not exist? I like gritty. I hate stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/551 "2015-04-30T02:44:37Z")
All good comments, but WOW was that one bleak, black episode. Nearly Sopranos level, on a dark midseason stretch. I loved that “good luck,” though. Perfect flash… forward. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/552 "2015-04-30T02:45:35Z")
I was further musing on what Barbara SHOULD have done (i.e. got the upper hand, tortured her captor to death, been found by Jim while smoking a satisfied post-murder cigarette) but it occurs to me that this in combination with Selena splattering that guy and the “balloon killer” from an earlier episode that an eventual bat-themed vigilante who doesn’t kill won’t be a symbol to a desperate corrupt city, but kind of a joke. “Whaddyamean mean you tied up the serial child molester and left him for the police? Why di’nt ya just waste him?” ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/553 "2015-05-05T02:39:09Z")
Well, we know Barbara WAS capable of taking out her captor if she so desired. Apparently Thomas Wayne only had one book by a Stoic Not sure I like what they did with Selena - though she is never “good” she doesn’t seem to be a follower either. They did bring back blue eyed Fish (at least I could tell - in some earlier episodes I wasn’t sure) Brian ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/554 "2015-05-05T03:15:40Z")
Pretty satisfying on the main. I’m looking forward to hearing from those that are familiar with the oringinal comic, although I know some things have been changed for the show. Is Barbara a future villian from the original? It seems they’ve given her quite a bit of story line which makes me think she is a character that we will eventually recognize? In any event, I was tired of her from the start and was hoping she would get killed off, but damn if the whole cat fight / sudden burst of evil wasn’t a pleasant surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e36b37/32.png) [@Not\_A\_Tame\_Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_A_Tame_Lion)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/555 "2015-05-05T06:49:38Z")
OK, I’ll bite: why did Fish take a detour through that new Mad Max movie on her way back to Gotham? Seems like changing her look in new and exciting ways should have been he least pressing issue. I’ll miss Falcone, if he’s really going away. He was the one crook with a certain amount of gravity. Barbara’s version of events (before her psycho freakout) did not seem to jibe with my memory of how that scene (murder of her parents) played out in the episode. Purposeful misreporting or just a product of her madness? I’m surprised Alfred seemed genuinely surprised at the (presumed) bat cave reveal. Seems improbable that Thomas Wayne would have been up to something like that without Alfred having some involvement (especially since Lucius Fox seems to know a lot about it, given the clue he gave). And Ed has grown interestingly unstable, instead of just odd. All in all, not a bad way to end the first season. I’m up for more. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/556 "2015-05-05T07:09:45Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Pretty satisfying on the main. I’m looking forward to hearing from those that are familiar with the oringinal comic, although I know some things have been changed for the show. Is Barbara a future villian from the original? It seems they’ve given her quite a bit of story line which makes me think she is a character that we will eventually recognize? In any event, I was tired of her from the start and was hoping she would get killed off, but damn if the whole cat fight / sudden burst of evil wasn’t a pleasant surprise. Nope. This is a _huge_ departure from comic book canon. She’s supposed to become Batgirl’s mom. So either they’re going entirely in their own direction away from that, which is fine. Or they’re gonna come up with a convoluted, convenient way for him to meet and marry a different Barbara. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/557 "2015-05-05T14:24:52Z")
The finale felt unsatisfying to me. Probably because I wanted Fish to be irrevocably dead, like the Ogre was. I did like the interaction with Fish and the Penguin - it was good to see Penguin finally grow some balls instead of sniveling and quivering the entire episode. Kinda disappointed in Falcone. “Huh, being a mob boss is actually not a safe career path. Maybe I should retire assuming I don’t get killed in the next five minutes”. It just felt very forced. Not necessarily out of character - I could see Carmine thinking about getting out earlier in the season - but just a forced in plot contrivance. I felt bad for Butch. He’s really one of my favorite characters. Barbara was annoying as usual. And apparently has had a psychotic break. I was really disappointed that Tompkins gave it to her request to be her counselor. That’s wildly inappropriate and would only happen in TV-land. I do wonder if David Mazouz will have the chops for another season. I actually don’t mind him as much as the season has progressed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/558 "2015-05-05T16:57:33Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > Nope. This is a _huge_ departure from comic book canon. She’s supposed to become Batgirl’s mom. > > So either they’re going entirely in their own direction away from that, which is fine. Or they’re gonna come up with a convoluted, convenient way for him to meet and marry a different Barbara. Canon is a little confused on this, there may be two Barbara’s. ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/559 "2015-05-06T04:30:25Z")
Really good first season. Plenty of action, tons of legit suspense, morally ambiguous (I almost never knew who to root for or against), high stakes, pathos. Gets a little over-the-top with the bloodshed sometimes, and there’s so much story going on that it’s tough to keep up, but minor quibbles. Major like. I tell you, after what seems like an eternity of the putrid swamp that is reality TV, I didn’t think it was possible for primetime to be riveting again. And now it is. I think the biggest revelation for me is how much I enjoyed following _everyone_. There literally wasn’t a single character who I thought was unbearable or a waste of space. Most of the time, you can set you damn watch by this. Futurama - Bender. South Park - Cartaman. Baby Blues - the neighbor’s son. The Simpsons - Dolph, Jimbo, and Kearney (with Patty and Selma getting a dishonorable mention). Not here. I even found myself liking characters I didn’t think I’d be giving the time of day. Carmine Falcone was almost sympathetic, Sal Maroni was downright charming, Butch was cooler than a suck-up goombah had any right to be, Victor Zsasz was brilliant in the menacing right hand man role, hell, I was touched by the plight of poor Lady Cobblepot (and I normally _hate_ the token oblivious mommy!). Fish? Y’know what, I think the best thing would be to open the next season with a report that her body was never found. Then hint at a possible return several times, maybe subtly implicate her in various crimes or shady dealings. Then in the season finale, with Penguin riding high and toasting his latest success, have someone knock on the door, which he cheerfully opens and sees…Butch, who happily reports that the cops finally found Fish’s body. A fitting end for her, to die the way she lived, sinister, untrustworthy, menacing, but ultimately no real threat. Which I strongly suspect was her true purpose all along, to show that as nasty as she was, she never had the chops to be one of Gotham City’s big dogs. I don’t want a new actress to portray her, and I don’t want her to be remembered as someone who actually mattered. She made some noise and died like all the rest. Que sera sera. Not everyone can be the quarterback. Will definitely be around for the next season. This is must-see TV. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/560 "2015-05-06T23:17:02Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > Nope. This is a _huge_ departure from comic book canon. She’s supposed to become Batgirl’s mom. Worth pointing out that comic wise Batgirl/Oracle is not Jim and Barbara’s biological daughter. She’s Jim’s brother’s daughter who they took in and adopted as a child. But the elder Barbara was never an important character, they spent a lot more time on Sarah Essen (yeah, the boss lady of the police precinct on the show) as Jim’s second wife than they ever did on her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=29)