# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/41 "2014-09-24T13:12:26Z")
Bullock should have been named Flass. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/42 "2014-09-24T13:21:49Z")
Speaking as someone who doesn’t do any superheroes except Batman – and who doesn’t know the canon by heart – I liked it a lot. Fabulous visuals, which goes a long way to keeping me happy. And I think treating the weekly eps as crime procedurals has a lot of possibilities. I liked the premiere and definitely plan to keep watching. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/43 "2014-09-24T13:26:33Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > No, it’s staggeringly dull in an era where every drama has to have a lesbian relationship shoehorned in somewhere. Wait…what? Renee Montoya has been a lesbian for more than a decade. She first appeared in the Bruce Timm animated Batman series where her romantic preferences were never discussed (she was a 3d tier character). When she was brought into the real DCU, she was stalked by Two-Face who had a thing for her, but he eventually outed her (and there were clues leading up to her outing). This was in about 2000 or so. Being lesbian is an integral part of her character: she lost her job because of it, she became a vigilante because of it, she’s got a (badly failed) relationship with the new Batwoman and so on. I’d agree if they wedged some in some new character in just for the sake of having a lesbian so that they could put a checkmark in the “sexual preferences diversity” box, but if you’re going to have Montoya (and if you have Bullock, you should have Montoya because they’re fun together. Also? Not a lot of other women on the GCPD), she’s gotta be a lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/44 "2014-09-24T13:29:13Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait…what? > > Renee Montoya has been a lesbian for more than a decade. She first appeared in the Bruce Timm animated Batman series where her romantic preferences were never discussed (she was a 3d tier character). When she was brought into the real DCU, she was stalked by Two-Face who had a thing for her, but he eventually outed her (and there were clues leading up to her outing). This was in about 2000 or so. > > Being lesbian is an integral part of her character: she lost her job because of it, she became a vigilante because of it, she’s got a (badly failed) relationship with the new Batwoman and so on. > > I’d agree if they wedged some in some new character in just for the sake of having a lesbian so that they could put a checkmark in the “sexual preferences diversity” box, but if you’re going to have Montoya (and if you have Bullock, you should have Montoya because they’re fun together. Also? Not a lot of other women on the GCPD), she’s gotta be a lesbian. Correct, except that it was the Mad Hatter who outed her. ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/45 "2014-09-24T13:31:53Z")
I wanted to enjoy it but I found it oddly paced. Also, some of that camera work was atrocious, especially the running scenes. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/46 "2014-09-24T13:33:26Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > I did notice they made the kid VERY observant for someone his age that had just seen his parents murdered. A vital attribute for a natural-born CSI vigilante! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/47 "2014-09-24T13:38:54Z")
Anybody know what the deal is with the “Wilhelm Craig” tombstone at the funeral? It was onscreen long enough that it seems to be set up as another Easter egg, but darned if I can figure it out (and Google has failed me). ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/48 "2014-09-24T14:23:55Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait…what? > > Renee Montoya has been a lesbian for more than a decade. She first appeared in the Bruce Timm animated Batman series where her romantic preferences were never discussed (she was a 3d tier character). When she was brought into the real DCU, she was stalked by Two-Face who had a thing for her, but he eventually outed her (and there were clues leading up to her outing). This was in about 2000 or so. > > Being lesbian is an integral part of her character: she lost her job because of it, she became a vigilante because of it, she’s got a (badly failed) relationship with the new Batwoman and so on. > > I’d agree if they wedged some in some new character in just for the sake of having a lesbian so that they could put a checkmark in the “sexual preferences diversity” box, but if you’re going to have Montoya (and if you have Bullock, you should have Montoya because they’re fun together. Also? Not a lot of other women on the GCPD), she’s gotta be a lesbian. I don’t think anyone had a problem with Montoya being a lesbian… it was the “Barbara and her have a secret lesbian relationship” plot that seemed extraneous and silly. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/49 "2014-09-24T14:26:04Z")
I loved it. Like twix, I enjoyed the visuals. I like that it’s not too Comic-booky also. I’ll keep watching. > [@Wolf333](#): > > Did anyone else think that Gordon looked like a young Bud White? Yes!! I kept thinking, I know that guy. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/50 "2014-09-24T14:29:25Z")
Ben McKenzie is impressing me a lot more as Gordon than he did as Batman (in Year One). ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/51 "2014-09-24T14:42:24Z")
I liked it, especially given that it was a pilot, which are usually kind of a mess even for shows that turn out to be good. Plus, even if it turns out to be terrible, I’ll give the people that made it points for balls. Seems pretty gutsy to try and make a Batman show without Batman (and in which even Bruce W is too young to do much). Not sure its a _good_ idea, but its different anyways. > [@sandra\_nz](#): > > I wanted to enjoy it but I found it oddly paced. Also, some of that camera work was atrocious, especially the running scenes. Heh, I found the face-cam during the running scenes to be pretty funny. Not sure it was supposed to be funny, but I LOL’d. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/52 "2014-09-24T14:51:05Z")
It reminded me a bit of Kick-Ass, in terms of the kids as villains and heroes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/53 "2014-09-24T14:54:58Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I thought it was excellently done. The best thing is that you knew absolutely nothing about the Batman mythos, it was just ass good. Oh, sure, the fans got tossed a lot of bones, but if you, say, didn’t know who Ed Nigma was, it didn’lt matter. > > I seem to remember Bullock as a character in **Batman: Year One.** > > I also like the fact that it didn’t spend time with exposition; it started _in medias res_ and didn’t waste a lot of time explaining things.I also like the fact that Gordon had a strong moral compass. It was clearly better than the premiere of **Agents of Shield** last year. That wasn’t Bullock in Batman:Year One, that was a detective Flass. I like how most of the show had a really 1970s early 1980s New York feel to it. We didn’t even see the first cellphone until almost halfway through the episode. One prediction I’m going to make now. Selina Kyle, Catwoman, is going to be Bruce Wayne’s illegitimate sister, which will explain her hiding in the shadows at the funeral and stalking him at his mansion. We’ll see if I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/54 "2014-09-24T15:11:53Z")
I didn’t think they were hinting at a past lesbian relationship, FWIW. I thought the secret past she was hinting at was something a bit more sinister, possibly criminal. If she’s an art dealer now, maybe the way she acquired said art was less than legal, and that’s not something James Gordon would be okay with. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/55 "2014-09-24T15:12:53Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Did anyone else think that Gordon looked like a young Bud White? Absolutely. And ain’t nothin’ bad about that. > [@Fenris](#): > > Renee Montoya has been a lesbian for more than a decade. > [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > I don’t think anyone had a problem with Montoya being a lesbian… it was the “Barbara and her have a secret lesbian relationship” plot that seemed extraneous and silly. This. I’ve gotten a little tired of a lesbian side plot being required for every new drama - especially as the occurrence of gay male relationships is both half that rate and much more delicately/shyly handled - and while this character may be canonically gay, that scene was painfully clumsy. Especially-especially as Barbara’s response is basically, “I’m not gay any more, you know, you silly bitch.” It’s the required sapphic scene watered down for broadcast prime time. > [@Simplicio](#): > > I liked it, especially given that it was a pilot, which are usually kind of a mess even for shows that turn out to be good. And this. Very few shows have a pilot that’s even up to middling standard against the long run of the show, and many, especially those with experimental aspects, tend to be 'orrible. I will definitely give it the season to prove out. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/56 "2014-09-24T15:14:29Z")
Eddie Blake. Hee hee hee hee hee hee… Maybe a lot of the cameos are a fan… wait for it… rorschach test. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/57 "2014-09-24T15:14:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Selina Kyle, Catwoman, is going to be Bruce Wayne’s illegitimate sister, which will explain her hiding in the shadows at the funeral and stalking him at his mansion. Tom (or Martha) Wayne, a millionaire pillar of the community, had an illegitimate daughter and then abandoned her? :eek: Highly unlikely! Selina, a feral denizen of Gotham’s back alleys, was an eyewitness to the murder of Bruce’s parents. It might be “natural” that she would feel some kind of creepy bond with him. (The Catwoman I know has always had weird designs on Batman.) ---
**Author:** ![G0sp3l](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@G0sp3l](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G0sp3l)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/58 "2014-09-24T15:16:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > \One prediction I’m going to make now. Selina Kyle, Catwoman, is going to be Bruce Wayne’s illegitimate sister, which will explain her hiding in the shadows at the funeral and stalking him at his mansion. > > We’ll see if I’m right.\ No way, no how. That big a change won’t fly and might trigger a fan-boy armageddon. Too many ships and actual comics with Bat/Cat as lovers for this to work. Unless the producers are way braver and have more of a free hand than I expect. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/59 "2014-09-24T15:20:19Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > I didn’t think they were hinting at a past lesbian relationship, FWIW. They were definitely hinting at a past relationship between Renee and Barbara. That’s also clearly not what Renee was talking about when she threw broad hints about Barbara’s secret. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/60 "2014-09-24T15:20:49Z")
Madame P. was surprised that Catwoman appeared to be so much older than Bruce. Checking the actors’ ages finds she’s only 2 years older than he is. (I know, that’s the actors, not the characters.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=4)