# Gotham (new show on Fox) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355 "2014-09-23T18:42:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/61 "2014-09-24T15:23:52Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Madame P. was surprised that Catwoman appeared to be so much older than Bruce. Being a feral denizen of Gotham’s back alleys would definitely age you prematurely! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/62 "2014-09-24T15:25:05Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Did anyone else think that Gordon looked like a young Bud White? Yeah, I got that vibe too. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/63 "2014-09-24T15:27:42Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Plus, even if it turns out to be terrible, I’ll give the people that made it points for balls. Seems pretty gutsy to try and make a Batman show without Batman (and in which even Bruce W is too young to do much). Not sure its a _good_ idea, but its different anyways. I think you’re giving them too much credit. This is the Age of the Remake, of latching onto old IPs for all you’re worth, and this show latches onto DC’s biggest IP. Making a Batman show without Batman after Marvel made an Avengers show without the Avengers is not gutsy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/64 "2014-09-24T15:51:08Z")
Is this show in any way connected to Arrow or Flash? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/65 "2014-09-24T15:51:45Z")
I guess I am watching the wrong shows but what are all these new dramas that have lesbian subplots? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/66 "2014-09-24T15:55:09Z")
I like it a lot more than ‘Arrow’, FWIW. Seems to me to be a lot more plausible so far. The extremes of the comic book and adaptations to screen don’t impress me. Keeping it a lot more ‘real’ works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/67 "2014-09-24T15:55:29Z")
I think I object most to the Waynes’ murder being turned into a high-level criminal conspiracy. I know, it has canon behind it but really, the whole point of Batman’s insanity is how random and pointless his parents’ killing was. Making it Falcone or some other heavy hitter means he can begin and end his career by snuffing that one person, or one organization. Bats is about the random, pointless insanity of most crime, and the endless job of trying to fight it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/68 "2014-09-24T16:00:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I guess I am watching the wrong shows but what are all these new dramas that have lesbian subplots? Can’t think of one recent one that hasn’t had such. Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, House of Cards, Justified, Walking Dead, House, Wire, Shield, Sopranos, SOA… Game of Drones, just off the top of my head. And this is while gay male relationships are much more tentative and often damaged/sick/destructive. It’s gone past “diversity” and into cheap shock value. The day one of these shows matter-of-factly shows two men rolling around in bed, all but showing penetration, with no overtones of doom or ‘sickness,’ they’ll have caught up with the Ooh Look Lesbians trope. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/69 "2014-09-24T16:02:49Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think I object most to the Waynes’ murder being turned into a high-level criminal conspiracy. I must have missed something. At what point was it revealed (or implied) that the murder was a mob hit? It had to be random, since the killer couldn’t have known the Waynes would walk through that particular alley after the movie. It seems to me they were merely targets of opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/70 "2014-09-24T16:08:32Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I must have missed something. At what point was it revealed (or implied) that the murder was a mob hit? It had to be random, since the killer couldn’t have known the Waynes would walk through that particular alley after the movie. It seems to me they were merely targets of opportunity. I can’t tell if you’re shining me on here or not. Yes, that was one vague argument advanced in the show, but the overwhelming tide of evidence is that it was someone in shiny shoes (= well dressed) pretending to be a mugger but working for some nameless criminal organization, with threads laid that it was neither Falcone or Mooney. I’m wagering that the season thread will be that Gordon tracks and finds out who it was, but has some reason he can’t ever tell Bruce Wayne. ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/71 "2014-09-24T16:10:12Z")
I will keep watching, because me equals nerd, but I was definitely underwhelmed by the premiere. Full disclosure, though, I went in expecting to be underwhelmed. The notion of a pre-Batman show about everything Gotham (except Batman of course) is not the stuff a series is made of, that’s the stuff an [Origins Episode](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OriginsEpisode) is made of. Or a short serial origins arc. It’s an interesting enough endeavor, but I know me all too well, I’m gonna be sitting there week after week thinking, “Okay, let’s get some Batman up in here already”. The episode itself was pretty clunky, and way too name-droppy. Oh look, it’s Gonna-Be-Catwoman, Pre-Penguin, AlmostRiddler, Someday-Poison Ivy, and maybe more, I lost count. I get it, it’s a pilot episode, let’s set that hook as deep as we can, but talk about overplaying your hand. The comedian has to be the Joker (as suggested earlier in this thread) because there’s no way the production team is nuanced enough for that **not** to have been the Joker. I’m not opposed to the cliche, especially when it’s revisited in a fresh and interesting way, but this wasn’t that. This was tired old ground, an uninteresting tour through an already well-known intellectual property. And seriously, McKenzie’s agent needs to warn him that if he keeps making that face, it will stick like that. That’s kind of the problem, though. Until Batman shows up, we’re stuck with dour and grim Gordon in a city so corrupt and irredeemable that Batman has become necessary. Even so, I’ll keep watching. I really want to see who cameo-Batman will be in the show’s finale. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/72 "2014-09-24T16:19:07Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re shining me on here or not. Yes, that was one vague argument advanced in the show, but the overwhelming tide of evidence is that it was someone in shiny shoes (= well dressed) pretending to be a mugger but working for some nameless criminal organization, with threads laid that it was neither Falcone or Mooney. I wouldn’t waste time asking the question if I already knew the answer. The killer may have been a mobster, but that doesn’t mean the murder was a sanctioned hit. Neither does wearing shiny shoes automatically make someone a mobster, or even an associate. The planting of evidence on a patsy does, however, show that the guy has definite connections, maybe even with the police. It’s fairly obvious that at least one of the criminals introduced last night knows who the killer is; they may simply be accomplices after the fact. I too will be interested to see how this plays out. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/73 "2014-09-24T16:22:44Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I must have missed something. At what point was it revealed (or implied) that the murder was a mob hit? Approximately 1 second before the killer actually pulled the trigger. The Waynes cooperated, without hesitation, then he still went ahead and popped them, anyway. Then, of course, there was Nygma telling Bullock and Gordon about the forensic evidence, such as the hugely expensive bullets. (It should be noted that the Waynes’ deaths _actually_ being a random crime of opportunity is by far the least common version of the events. Specifically who had them capped changes from universe to universe, but the Waynes piss off SOMEONE powerful and dishonest in most of them.) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/74 "2014-09-24T16:22:58Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I must have missed something. At what point was it revealed (or implied) that the murder was a mob hit? It had to be random, since the killer couldn’t have known the Waynes would walk through that particular alley after the movie. It seems to me they were merely targets of opportunity. The implication of the clues we’re given (shiny shoes, expensive ammo) is that it wasn’t some common street criminal. It’s also unlikely to be any of the established criminal mobs – they wouldn’t want the resulting disruptions (hence the frameup to get the case closed ASAP) – though it could be a rogue individual in one of the mobs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/75 "2014-09-24T16:46:56Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Oh my god Harvey! You can’t just shoot an innocent man who’s trying kill you partner with a meat cleaver. You could go to jail or something. > . Yeah, that guy was also a convicted rapist, wifebeater, and shot at Gordon. He was scum, and trying to kill a cop. In no fucking way was he “innocent”. Framed- yes, innocent-no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/76 "2014-09-24T16:51:50Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > No, it’s staggeringly dull in an era where every drama has to have a lesbian relationship shoehorned in somewhere. So very true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/77 "2014-09-24T16:55:24Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Approximately 1 second before the killer actually pulled the trigger. The Waynes cooperated, without hesitation, then he still went ahead and popped them, anyway. Then, of course, there was Nygma telling Bullock and Gordon about the forensic evidence, such as the hugely expensive bullets. Except that- that is stupid. Why rob them? Why not just shoot them with a rifle from the top of a building? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/78 "2014-09-24T16:59:07Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > (It should be noted that the Waynes’ deaths _actually_ being a random crime of opportunity is by far the least common version of the events. Specifically who had them capped changes from universe to universe, but the Waynes piss off SOMEONE powerful and dishonest in most of them.) It’s the original. Per wiki _"Not much is known about Chill except that he is, in most versions of Batman, a petty mugger who kills Bruce’s parents Thomas and Martha while trying to take their money and jewelry. When he demands Martha’s necklace, Thomas moves to protect his wife and Chill kills him; he then kills Martha when she screams for help. "_ ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/79 "2014-09-24T17:00:20Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Approximately 1 second before the killer actually pulled the trigger. The Waynes cooperated, without hesitation, then he still went ahead and popped them, anyway. Then, of course, there was Nygma telling Bullock and Gordon about the forensic evidence, such as the hugely expensive bullets. Psychopaths get pleasure from the simple act of killing. Doesn’t mean it was a contract hit. I’ll admit, though, I find it strange that he didn’t kill the boy as well. Knowledge of the forensic evidence is something an accessory after the fact might well have. Still not proof of a hit. I can indeed see that philanthropic millionaires could seriously piss the wrong people off somewhere along the line, so a revenge killing is a distinct possibility. But again, it would be a remarkable stroke of luck to be waiting to ambush your victim in a dark alley they may or may not use after coming out of a movie (I personally avoid dark alleys like the plague). ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355/80 "2014-09-24T17:17:06Z")
Yes, there never is a good explanation for why the Waynes are taking a dark and dangerous shortcut when (1) it’s something city dwellers who have learned to walk upright never, ever do; (2) intelligent, informed patrons of the city would avoid short of godlike hubris; (3) where in the FUCK was Alfred and their car? ETA: Wait, it’s obvious! Alfred capped them! ETA2: Oh, and it’s obvious there’s no Comedian in that universe… 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gotham-new-show-on-fox/699355.md?page=5)