# Gov Newsom cancels Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109 "2019-03-14T02:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/61 "2019-03-15T00:47:05Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [And here I will bring up the incredible case of Rolando Cruz.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolando_Cruz_case) Cruz was convicted, sentenced to die, case overturned, retried, sentenced to die, case overturned, retried… even though one of the cops admitted he lied, the DNA did NOT match, the prosecution withheld exculpatory physical evidence and AND…they had a confession and an DNA match to someone in prison on a similar rape\murder . Cruz was finally pardoned in by the Governor in 2002, with DA still saying Cruz was guilty. So your argument that innocent people are executed is a case where an innocent person _wasn’t_ executed? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/62 "2019-03-15T01:00:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > In the past 75 years or so, I’d say no person has been wrongly executed in this country. There’s more than one way to “wrongly execute” someone. Many, many times someone has been convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death. After appeal, the charge is reduced to a lesser crime, maybe 2nd degree murder, or even manslaughter. Had the execution been carried out, it would be a great injustice, and an irreversible error. I think it virtually certain that there have been a number of wrongful executions of this type. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/63 "2019-03-15T01:51:27Z")
How about [George Stinney](https://theadvocatespost.org/2013/11/08/was-executed-14-year-old-innocent/)? Even in the extremely unlikely event that he had been guilty, he was _fourteen-years-old_. They had to stack books on the chair because he was too small to reach all of the electrodes, and he wasn’t even allowed to see his parents before the trial. How is THAT justified? His conviction has since been vacated by civilized individuals, but it can’t erase what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/64 "2019-03-15T02:06:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How about [George Stinney](https://theadvocatespost.org/2013/11/08/was-executed-14-year-old-innocent/)? Even in the extremely unlikely event that he had been guilty, he was _fourteen-years-old_. They had to stack books on the chair because he was too small to reach all of the electrodes, and he wasn’t even allowed to see his parents before the trial. > > How is THAT justified? His conviction has since been vacated by civilized individuals, but it can’t erase what happened. No, it doesn’t, and you’ll note that I qualified that an innocent person hasn’t been executed _in the last 75 years_ because of that specific case. I think we can all agree that the justice system of California in 2019 is more thorough than that of the Jim Crow South, and it would be silly to argue that a lynching that happened in the 40’s means that unrepentant child killers should get a free pass today. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/65 "2019-03-15T02:26:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This idea got bandied about a lot right after the election, and was [almost immediately debunked.](https://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/12/04/poll-black-voters-not-responsible-for-passage-of-same-sex-marriage-ban-in-california) Well thanks for bursting my bubble. I like to think my fellow Californians are a more enlightened group & the passage of prop 8 was a weird fluke, but now I’ll have to rework my theory. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > There’s more than one way to “wrongly execute” someone. > > Many, many times someone has been convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death. After appeal, the charge is reduced to a lesser crime, maybe 2nd degree murder, or even manslaughter. Had the execution been carried out, it would be a great injustice, and an irreversible error. > > I think it virtually certain that there have been a number of wrongful executions of this type. Are you saying that there are cases where someone has been sentenced to death & the execution was carried out WITHOUT an appeal? The lengthy appeals process is why inmates die of old age on death row. I’ve never heard of a capital case that wasn’t appealed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/66 "2019-03-15T02:29:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We’ve discussed Willingham at length in previous threads and it’s clear to me that he is unquestionably guilty. He clearly intended to murder at least one of his daughters for the insurance money and admitted as much through his own words and deeds No, he didnt. He never signed a confession. The jailhouse informant was known to be unreliable. In any case, other experts said there was no sign of arson. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/67 "2019-03-15T02:30:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it doesn’t, and you’ll note that I qualified that an innocent person hasn’t been executed _in the last 75 years_ because of that specific case. > > I think we can all agree that the justice system of California in 2019 is more thorough than that of the Jim Crow South, and it would be silly to argue that a lynching that happened in the 40’s means that unrepentant child killers should get a free pass today. The need for an arbitrary cut-off doesn’t suggest a problem? And who’s calling for free passes? Name names. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/68 "2019-03-15T06:42:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The need for an arbitrary cut-off doesn’t suggest a problem? It’s not an arbitrary point. It’s a completely different historical era, in a society that was wildly different from our own. George Stinney would _never_ have been executed today for a number of reasons - we don’t allow the death penalty for guilty pleas, we don’t execute juveniles, we recognize inadequate counsel as grounds for a retrial, we don’t allow all-white juries and witness intimidation, etc. Are you now arguing that if there has _ever_ been a wrongful execution in human history, we have to treat the death penalty as unacceptable ever ever again? “Sorry, new historical research says that Rothgar Hadrigsen _did_ in fact pay the full weregild for his part in the slaying of Aethelraed Half-Beard. We can’t let that mistake happen again.” > [@](#): > > And who’s calling for free passes? Name names. Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/69 "2019-03-15T06:52:46Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Even if I agreed with your statement (which I don’t) how do you know you have one of those ‘certain individuals’? > > Do you want to take a guess at how many death row inmates have been exonerated (that we know about)? > > If you still think the death penalty is appropriate even knowing that the state will be killing some innocent people with almost 100% certainty, it means you’re not interested in justice. You simply want retribution. And that’s now how the justice system is supposed to work in civilized society. I’d say it’s retribution if the person getting killed is the one who committed the act. Otherwise, it’s simply catharsis (blood lust, if you will). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/70 "2019-03-15T06:55:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. Well, I know exactly who I am and I’m certainly not “giving them a free pass”. What you seem to be refusing to understand is that capital punishment is wrong. Also it does not happen to be on the judge’s menu for sentencing, so your wishing it on the offender is simply your own blood lust and desire to have an extrajudicial punishment inflicted on someone. By the way a “free pass” would be no punishment whatsoever. The man was tried, convicted, and sentenced. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/71 "2019-03-15T07:40:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What you seem to be refusing to understand is that capital punishment is wrong. Capital punishment is not wrong. To the contrary, _not_ having capital punishment is often wrong. Is it just or fair that under the much-ballyhooed Scandinavian justice system, that in 2033 Anders Breivik will be a free man after murdering 77 innocent people in an attempt to incite a race war, and will have nothing to stop him from picking up right where he left off? > [@](#): > > Also it does not happen to be on the judge’s menu for sentencing, so your wishing it on the offender is simply your own blood lust and desire to have an extrajudicial punishment inflicted on someone. I do not desire “extrajudicial punishment” for anyone. I desire that “the judge’s menu” include all necessary options necessary to punish the guilty as appropriate. > [@](#): > > By the way a “free pass” would be no punishment whatsoever. The man was tried, convicted, and sentenced. To a sentence extremely disproportionate to the nature of his crime. His victim gets to cease existing forever and ever, and he gets to live out the rest of his life without ever having to worry about having his needs provided for. And _that_ is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/72 "2019-03-15T07:52:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, he didnt. He never signed a confession. The jailhouse informant was known to be unreliable. The informant’s testimony is irrelevant to the fact that [his behavior during and in the days following the crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham#Evidence)shows proof of his guilt; > [@](#): > > Eyewitnesses described Willingham as having "singed hair on his chest, eyelids, and head and had a two-inch burn injury on his right shoulder, but the prosecution highlighted the absence of any evidence of smoke inhalation… > > According to their sworn statements, both Brandice Barbee and Diane Barbee urged Willingham to return into the house to rescue his children. According to Brandice Barbee, “All I could see was smoke”.According to Brandice, he refused, and moved his car away from the fire before returning to sit on a nearby lawn, “not once attempting to go inside to rescue his children”. Once the fire had reached flashover **and the fire department arrived** (emphasis mine), Willingham became far more agitated, to the point of being restrained by emergency services. > > In the following days, Willingham returned to the house with some family and friends. Neighbors described this group as having an odd levity, which was seen to turn somber on the arrival of authorities.On returning to the scene of the fire with fireman Ron Franks, in an effort to recover personal property (which was described as a very usual request at trial), Willingham was visibly dismayed at being unable to find a dart set. At a local bar, where a fundraiser was held for the Willingham family, he placed an order for a replacement set, stating that “money was not a problem now”… > > In a 2009 article discussing the reasons why Willingham was found guilty, Jackson recalled witness statements establishing that Willingham was overheard whispering to his deceased older daughter at the funeral home, “You’re not the one who was supposed to die.” The evidence stands for itself - Willingham intended to kill one or both of his younger daughters so he could collect on an insurance settlement and because the strains of fatherhood were wearing on him. He deliberately blocked exits to make escape difficult. The fire burned faster than he expected it to, but made no attempt to rescue anyone until the fire department showed up, at which time he put on an act of being distraught - an act he failed to keep up later on when the authorities weren’t around. > [@](#): > > In any case, other experts said there was no sign of arson. Aside from [the flammable cologne that Willingham admitted to pouring in the hallway where the fire started;](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/disputed-execution-doesnt-sway-jurors/) > [@](#): > > Ronald Franks, a Corsicana Fire Department paramedic, testified he returned to the home a few days after the fire. He found Willingham, who complained that his dart set was either burned or stolen from the wreckage. > > Then, Franks testified, Willingham told him investigators would likely find cologne in the floor samples they were testing. He told Franks “he had poured cologne on the floor because the children had liked the smell of that cologne.” He said he had poured it from the bathroom through the hallway to where the children were found, Franks said. This is the “best” case anti-CP people have to offer - a blatantly guilty triple murderer who beat his wife and loved his children less than his dartboard. It’s pretty evident at this point that any claims of concern for innocent people or morality are just excuses concocted by those who have a visceral emotional reaction to the idea of capital punishment and need a better excuse for why it should be done away with than “It grosses me out”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/73 "2019-03-15T09:12:27Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Are you saying that there are cases where someone has been sentenced to death & the execution was carried out WITHOUT an appeal? I don’t know how you got that from my post. I’m saying that people have \*probably \*been executed for murder when they should have been convicted of a lesser crime such as manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/74 "2019-03-15T09:19:36Z")
You guys are arguing with\*\* Smapti \*\*that the state might be wrong, about an issue where even sensible people argue that it mostly never is? 😃 For the record, I’m perfectly fine with the death penalty. Except for the part where I don’t trust that our judicial systems will reliably sentence to death only guilty people. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/75 "2019-03-15T10:41:18Z")
That, and there’s a pattern in the US of it being applied disproportionately to defendants of color. Anyway, our killing someone, even if we say “they deserved it”, makes us killers too. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/76 "2019-03-15T10:59:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That, and there’s a pattern in the US of it being applied disproportionately to defendants of color. And I’ve said many times - if a person of color would get the death penalty for a given crime, then a white person in similar circumstances should get the death penalty too. I don’t believe in giving white people special breaks. > [@](#): > > Anyway, our killing someone, even if we say “they deserved it”, makes us killers too. There’s no shame in being a “killer” if the person being killed has already forfeited their right to live. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/77 "2019-03-15T12:35:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There’s no shame in being a “killer” if the person being killed has already forfeited their right to live. “Forfeited their right to live” is \*not \*an objective fact, but merely a restatement of our own decision based on our own values. Those include reserving to ourselves the “right” to premeditated murder of another human being. And that makes us no better than him, no matter how we rationalize it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/78 "2019-03-15T13:05:36Z")
“Could you pull that switch yourself, Sir, with a sure and steady hand? And then could you still tell yourself, Sir, that you’re better than I am?” -Steve Earle “Billy Austin” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/79 "2019-03-15T14:53:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > “Forfeited their right to live” is \*not \*an objective fact, but merely a restatement of our own decision based on our own values. Those include reserving to ourselves the “right” to premeditated murder of another human being. And that makes us no better than him, no matter how we rationalize it. I don’t see how that follows. By that logic, we’re “no better than” a kidnapper if we lock up a kidnapper — because, well, he locked someone in a little cell, and then we did that to _him,_ see? And we’re “no better than” a crook we’re fining, if all he did was take some guy’s money and we responded by taking _his_. I hope you wouldn’t reason that way in those cases; I hope you’d grant that we _are_ better than the thief we fine, or the kidnapper we imprison. (If I’m wrong on that, then, please, set me right; but if I _am_ already right, then why flatly state that we’d be “no better than” the murderer we execute?) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/80 "2019-03-15T14:58:30Z")
The reasons, or rationalizations if you prefer, for imprisoning someone are multiple - punishment, rehabilitation, penitence, preparation for a life as a Productive Citizen, and protection of the public from a dangerous person, and probably some others too. There is \*no \*valid reason or even rationalization I know of for execution other than vengeance. Even “finality and closure” don’t apply for the wrongly convicted. It’s even \*more \*expensive than life imprisonment, in fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109.md?page=5)