# Gov Newsom cancels Death Penalty **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2019, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109 "2019-03-14T02:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/81 "2019-03-15T15:05:00Z")
“Forfeited their right to live”-Unless you’ve got a signed and witnessed declaration saying “I forfeit my right to live”, this seems like an excuse from Oliver Hardy(“_Now_ look what you’ve made me do!”). Even if such a declaration is written, signed and witnessed, the State must still take full responsibilities for its own actions, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/82 "2019-03-15T15:16:02Z")
If one _can_ “forfeit one’s right to life”, does this allow for suicide and/or assisted suicide? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/83 "2019-03-15T16:16:55Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Well thanks for bursting my bubble. I like to think my fellow Californians are a more enlightened group & the passage of prop 8 was a weird fluke, but now I’ll have to rework my theory. I mean, the black people you thought were responsible for passing prop 8 were also your “fellow Californians,” so I’m not sure how this new information changes anything for you. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/84 "2019-03-15T16:33:40Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “Could you pull that switch yourself, Sir, > with a sure and steady hand? > And then could you still tell yourself, Sir, > that you’re better than I am?” > -Steve Earle “Billy Austin” Yes to both. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/85 "2019-03-15T16:49:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That, and there’s a pattern in the US of it being applied disproportionately to defendants of color. > > Anyway, our killing someone, even if we say “they deserved it”, makes us killers too. This is not true. In 2017 in murder cases where the race of the offender was known, [43.1](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/expanded-homicide)% were white. According to [deathpenalty](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976).info 55.6% of the people who were executed in the US since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 were white. The raw percentages understate the trend because the differences in the number of murderers by race used to be much much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/86 "2019-03-15T17:03:27Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t know how you got that from my post. > > I’m saying that people have \*probably \*been executed for murder when they should have been convicted of a lesser crime such as manslaughter. Ok I see what you’re saying now, sorry for the misunderstanding. But I think the lengthy appeals process is imperative if the death penalty is on the table, because it’s during that process that wrongful convictions are overturned (e.g. an aggravated murder conviction that should have been manslaughter). And that’s the reason I oppose the death penalty–the appeals process, which HAS to be in place, and HAS to be extremely lengthy, makes capital punishment so absurdly expensive that we should do away with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/87 "2019-03-15T17:03:50Z")
The [biggest discrepancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_capital_punishment_in_the_United_States), as I understand it, is that capital punishment in the US is much more likely to be imposed when the victim of the murderer was white as opposed to when the victim was black. As much as a 4 to 1 difference, in some studies. Multiple studies in multiple states have come to this same conclusion, according to Wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/88 "2019-03-15T17:04:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > According to [deathpenalty](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976).info 55.6% of the people who were executed in the US since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 were white. That means that about 44.4% of executed prisoners were non-white, compared to about 28% of the population being non-white. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/89 "2019-03-15T17:06:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t see how that follows. By that logic, we’re “no better than” a kidnapper if we lock up a kidnapper — because, well, he locked someone in a little cell, and then we did that to _him,_ see? And we’re “no better than” a crook we’re fining, if all he did was take some guy’s money and we responded by taking _his_. If we lock up a kidnapper _because he is a kidnapper_, then that makes us no better. If we take from a thief _because he is a thief_, then that makes us no better. If we fine and lock up criminals to segregate them from society and to deter crime through the threat of punishment, then we are engaging in criminal justice. If we do to the criminal what the criminal did to his victims, _because it is what he did to his victims_, then we are engaging in vengeance, not justice. > [@](#): > > I hope you wouldn’t reason that way in those cases; I hope you’d grant that we _are_ better than the thief we fine, or the kidnapper we imprison. (If I’m wrong on that, then, please, set me right; but if I _am_ already right, then why flatly state that we’d be “no better than” the murderer we execute?) We have no need of executing a murderer to protect society from him. We can hold him for the rest of his life, if that is what is necessary, and that will actually be cheaper than trying to kill him. There was a time when that was not true. That trying to keep someone segregated from society for life was impractical if not impossible. In those times and places, the death penalty may be necessary to protect society. If we have a choice in whether or not to kill, and we choose to kill, then we have chosen to be killers. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/90 "2019-03-15T18:41:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So your argument that innocent people are executed is a case where an innocent person _wasn’t_ executed? You know that is not true. Look at the link and read about the cases. Like the one where the \*investigating officers \*say the guy was innocent, that they found NOTHING that tied him the crime. _Nothing._ And he was executed anyway. Now, about Cruz and the State of Illinois: It means they were trying their damnedest to execute a man they _knew to be innocent_. These were the people we have put our trust in. You, much more than me, obviously. They \*KNEW \*he didn’t do it and tried to have him executed anyway. This and the West Memphis Three were just the cases where it was blatantly fucking obvious that they were innocent. And the State still tried to kill them. Let’s go back to this for a moment: > [@](#): > > Since 1966 there had been 381 homicide convictions in the United States reversed on the grounds that prosecutors knowingly used false evidence or withheld evidence suggesting innocence. That should fucking terrify you. And there are 2 reasons. 1. It shows that the cops and prosecutors had\have no interest in justice or the rule of law. That sometimes they are no better, and sometimes far worse, that the people they prosecute. 2. These are only the ones we KNOW about. Don’t kid yourself into thinking these are the only cases. That this is an exhaustive list. Remember, these cases were found and exposed with the government trying to deny or conceal them. Let’s use the cockroach analogy . For every one we see, there are more that we do not. I like Penn Jillete’s quote about the death penalty, where he said if Google was in charge of the death penalty, he would for it. Google doesn’t fuck up very much. The same cannot be said for the criminal justice system. [US Death Row Study: 4% of defendants sentenced to die are innocent](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent) > [@](#): > > The team arrived at a deliberately conservative figure that lays bare the extent of possible miscarriages of justice, suggesting that the innocence of more than 200 prisoners still in the system may never be recognised. > [@](#): > > “If you look at the numbers in our study, at how many errors are made, then you cannot believe that we haven’t executed any innocent person – that would be wishful thinking.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/91 "2019-03-15T19:34:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not an arbitrary point. It’s a completely different historical era, in a society that was wildly different from our own. George Stinney would _never_ have been executed today for a number of reasons - we don’t allow the death penalty for guilty pleas, we don’t execute juveniles, we recognize inadequate counsel as grounds for a retrial, we don’t allow all-white juries and witness intimidation, etc. So you contend the American justice system is now flawless, huh? At what precise point in history did _that_ happen? > [@](#): > > Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. That’s your working definition of “free pass” ? ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/92 "2019-03-15T21:44:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. From everything I’ve ever read, life in prison for a child killer is anything but a free pass and would be far worse than death (at least by my standards). They are the lowest of the low in the prison hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/93 "2019-03-15T22:10:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not until next election. Oh noes, does that mean that they can’t do something in the next four years that they haven’t done in the last 13 years? I hope the republic can survive such lawlessness. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/94 "2019-03-15T22:18:35Z")
Another factor I heard in an interview with Scott Turow, who was for the death penalty until he served on the Illinois Commission about it. When pushing for a plea deal, prosecutors would ask for the death penalty as an incentive for the suspect to plead guilty. The guilty would jump at it, but the innocent would tend to refuse the deal. And if their lawyers screw up, or the prosecution lied, they might wind up on death row. I don’t understand why the right, who thinks government can do nothing right, thinks that the government legal system is 100% correct in capital cases. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/95 "2019-03-15T22:23:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. I was abused severely as a child physically, mentally emotionally as a child and somehow I came out of it with my humanity intact. Not sure why it’s so hard for others? Did you lose a child to murder? As for me, I’d have rather been murdered than endure what I did but that’s besides the point. We have a culture that teaches that violence is the answer to all our problems and then condemn those that act out on it. I blame society more than the killers and of course, most of the free world rejects our barbarity and manages less crimes. Are you telling me they do it wrong but get better results or that we’re just that horrible as a people. Can’t have it both really. Generally I hear it;s because we’re different just like they say about having guns. At some point, you just have to say if we suck that badly as a people it’s our faults, not the killers because while killing folks isn’t an American thing, fetishizing violence and acting on it is our raison d’etre. So, you say don’t give them a pass and that’s fine but I don’t see this culture getting one either. Either we all deserve to die or none of us do. We all feed the beast. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/96 "2019-03-16T02:31:20Z")
The main problem - as noted by several above - is that once an innocent person is convicted, it’s really really hard to get that overturned. And once someone’s been executed, very little time / effort is spent by the judicial system to look into whether the execution was just. Here’s a list of [death-row inmates that were ultimately exonerated](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row): > [@](#): > > To be on the list, defendants must have been convicted, sentenced to death and subsequently either- > > a. Been acquitted of all charges related to the crime that placed them on death row, or > > b. Had all charges related to the crime that placed them on death row dismissed by the prosecution or the courts, or > > c. Been granted a complete pardon based on evidence of innocence. There are 164 people on that list, just going back 50 years. And remember - these are the lucky ones. There have been about 1,500 executions since 1976. 10% of that total were _found innocent_. Do you really think that the 164 people were exactly the only actual innocent ones to have ended up on death row and ultimately found innocent? Do you really think that there weren’t many others in the 1,500 that were executed that simply ran out of time, or didn’t have someone looking in to their case? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/97 "2019-03-16T03:42:12Z")
Here is a list of women on death row in the U.S.: > **[List of women on death row in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women_on_death_row_in_the_United_States)** > > This is a list of women on death row in the United States. The number of death row inmates fluctuates daily with new convictions, appellate decisions overturning conviction or sentence alone, commutations, or deaths (through execution or otherwise). Due to this fluctuation as well as lag and inconsistencies in inmate reporting procedures across jurisdictions, the information in this article may be out of date. The time on death row counter starts on the day they were first placed on death Could those of you who favor the death penalty go through this list and confirm that these women are deserving of that punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/98 "2019-03-16T20:43:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, it doesn’t, and you’ll note that I qualified that an innocent person hasn’t been executed _in the last 75 years_ because of that specific case. > > I think we can all agree that the justice system of California in 2019 is more thorough than that of the Jim Crow South, and it would be silly to argue that a lynching that happened in the 40’s means that unrepentant child killers should get a free pass today. That wasn’t a lynching. It was a legal execution. And it was roughly around 75 years ago. (And when did you name that specific case, **Smapti**?) PRIOR to me doing so? > [@Smapti](#): > > It’s not an arbitrary point. It’s a completely different historical era, in a society that was wildly different from our own. George Stinney would _never_ have been executed today for a number of reasons - we don’t allow the death penalty for guilty pleas, we don’t execute juveniles, we recognize inadequate counsel as grounds for a retrial, we don’t allow all-white juries and witness intimidation, etc. > > Are you now arguing that if there has _ever_ been a wrongful execution in human history, we have to treat the death penalty as unacceptable ever ever again? “Sorry, new historical research says that Rothgar Hadrigsen _did_ in fact pay the full weregild for his part in the slaying of Aethelraed Half-Beard. We can’t let that mistake happen again.” > > Anyone who says an unrepentant child killer shouldn’t be executed is giving them a free pass. You know who you are. Now you’re moving the goal posts – and just plain being silly. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/99 "2019-03-17T01:47:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you now arguing that if there has ever been a wrongful execution in human history, we have to treat the death penalty as unacceptable ever ever again? If the reasons for the wrongful execution happening still exist, yes, that’s exactly what we’re arguing. If you want to argue that the factors no longer exist or are a concern, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109/100 "2019-03-17T01:52:19Z")
You know who gives a free pass to murderers? Death penalty advocates. If I wanted to get away with murder, I wouldn’t do it in California-- I’d do it in Texas. That way, all I have to do is to lay low until someone is executed for the murder, and now I’m scott free. Remember, every time an innocent person is executed for murder, not only does that mean that the state is a murderer, it also means that there’s some other murderer out there who will now never face the consequences of the law. Justice is served by the truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gov-newsom-cancels-death-penalty/831109.md?page=6)