# Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743 "2011-02-17T20:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/281 "2011-02-23T19:28:49Z")
Whoa. Is this really [Scott Walker](http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/scott-walker-takes-prank-call-blogger-posing-david-koch_552383.html)? Holy shit. If it is, no wonder this dude didn’t graduate from college. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/282 "2011-02-23T19:30:12Z")
But to be fair, **Nadir** is not an idiot. Clearly, he has good sense enough to base his entire argument on his own snide contempt, and avoids the trap of offering “facts”. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/283 "2011-02-23T19:31:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But to be fair, **Nadir** is not an idiot. Clearly, he has good sense enough to base his entire argument on his own snide contempt, and avoids the trap of offering “facts”. There are many colors in the Crap Rainbow, my dear fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/284 "2011-02-23T19:43:12Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > No it is obfuscating, because of the way _median_ is bandied about in the media - … > The median is a short hand reference point,… > Mean wages, which your cite doesn’t present (nor do most statistics, since it is usually lower, and everyone just wants ‘happy’ numbers) are far more relevant,… > So acting like the median wage represents anything meaningful is obfuscating, but it is one of the favorite tactics of populists who just want simplified solutions to complex issues and think nuance is some tacky French perfume. I know what I would prefer from my legislators and governors. Unfortunately the majority of the voters decided otherwise in Wisconsin. I’m with the unions here but: Median means the 50th percentaile. that means that 50% of teachers make MORE than that amount and 50% make less. Mean is what you and i consider average. This measure is MORE susceptible to skew. Mode shows clumping so if there are a lot of teachers that make 32K then 32K is a mode. Median is consistently a relevant average to use. I think the pay issue is something you can debate but stripping bargaining rights and the ridiculous annual election rule is way over the edge. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/285 "2011-02-23T19:45:18Z")
> [@furt](#): > > This does not compute; pay raises equal to inflation would mean they stay even, not fall behind I think its because its a cap. > [@](#): > > Sounds like a good argument for merit pay, where the best teachers get more money and the worst ones get booted. Shame the unions have been opposing that for years. Thats an argument you can make but stripping bargaining rights and making unions get a mahjority of every employee to vote for a union every year is nucking futz. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/286 "2011-02-23T19:56:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m with the unions here but: > > Median means the 50th percentaile. that means that 50% of teachers make MORE than that amount and 50% make less. > > Mean is what you and i consider average. This measure is MORE susceptible to skew. > > Mode shows clumping so if there are a lot of teachers that make 32K then 32K is a mode. > > Median is consistently a relevant average to use. I am not up on what analysis is better to use (median or mean) but isn’t there an issue with the Median when, in this case, you have varying costs of living? A teacher in Boise may make less than a teacher in New York City in absolute terms but when measured against what it costs to live in the area the teacher in Boise might be better off (not saying they are, haven’t looked, just a made-up example). So, if you draw a median line between Boise and New York City teachers are you getting a useful measure? (Again, really asking, I do not know.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/287 "2011-02-23T20:16:38Z")
Teachers unions are illegal in five states. These states rank 50th, 49th, 48th, 47th, and 44th in test scores. SOURCE: [http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/](http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/288 "2011-02-23T20:22:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.politicususa.com/en/rachel-maddow-walker-unions](http://www.politicususa.com/en/rachel-maddow-walker-unions) > > Walker was involved in union busting before. He fired all the prison guards and replaced them with Wackenhut private guards. He overstated budget problems, lied about the cost and acted unilaterally. Then once his actions were determined to be illegal, they had to reinstate the guards and give back pay. All he accomplished was to show super rich that he would do what they wanted. That is why they dumped so much money into his campaign. There were apparently even more problems than these. Before he acted unilaterally, claiming budget emergency, he apparently tried twice before this to get the unionized prison guards replaced. He was overruled both times, which is why he switched to the “budget emergency” ploy. So, I have to ask – how did this guy get elected? Why didn’t his Democratic opponents bring all this up in fiery red letters during the election? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/289 "2011-02-23T20:24:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Thats an argument you can make but stripping bargaining rights and making unions get a mahjority of every employee to vote for a union every year is nucking futz. Well, it’s certainly unpopular with teachers, and ultimately the voters will weigh in. But it’s not as if every other state gives their employees collective bargaining; lots don’t. I’m in Virginia, where it’s explicitly illegal, and I’m not aware of teachers here being especially oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/290 "2011-02-23T20:25:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Teachers unions are illegal in five states. These states rank 50th, 49th, 48th, 47th, and 44th in test scores. > > SOURCE: [http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/](http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/) **Nadir** , just what do you hope to gain be denying Wisconsin kids access to quality education? Why do you want to damage America’s ability to compete in the information age? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/291 "2011-02-23T20:28:04Z")
Median means the center point of a distribution. So if the lowest end of the scale is 10,000 and the upper end is 50,000 then the median is 30,000. For instance, if you had 5 people who made, respectively, 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k and 50k, the median would be 30k. But if you had 5 people who made, respectively, 10k, 10k, 10k, 10k, and 50k, then the median is still 30k. Using median as a comparative marker for pay scales is fraught with issues. One system might have many, many new teachers making the lower end of the pay scale, with a very few senior people making a much higher rate. Another might have many very senior, highly credentialed people and only a few newbies making squat, and the median of both systems could be identical. This tells you nothing about waste, inefficiency, abuse of longevity promotion, competence of personnel, effectiveness of effort, or anything else that should be examined to decide if a pay scale is “too high” or the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/292 "2011-02-23T20:32:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Teachers unions are illegal in five states. These states rank 50th, 49th, 48th, 47th, and 44th in test scores. > > SOURCE: [http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/](http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2011/02/22/no-strong-teacher-unions-lower-satact-scores-any-correlation/) > [@furt](#): > > Well, it’s certainly unpopular with teachers, and ultimately the voters will weigh in. But it’s not as if every other state gives their employees collective bargaining; lots don’t. I’m in Virginia, where it’s explicitly illegal, and I’m not aware of teachers here being especially oppressed. **furt** , guess which one of those scores goes to \*not especially oppressed \*Virginia? _Hint- only 6 states scored worse._ ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/293 "2011-02-23T20:47:55Z")
It also turns out he’s a Kochsucker (well, faux-Kochsucker), as evidenced in this prank call today: > **[Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker Gets Punked on Tape](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-gets-punked-on-tape/71613/)** > > The Buffalo Beast prank-called Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker pretending to be billionaire conservative David Koch wanting to talk about the protests > [@](#): > > In a stunt reminiscent of the time a Montreal radio comedian interviewed Sarah Palin while pretending to be French President Nicolas Sarkozy, the Buffalo Beast’s Ian Murphy prank-called Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker pretending to be conservative megadonor David Koch wanting to talk about the union protests in Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/294 "2011-02-23T20:54:31Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Public worker unions all over the country have been getting a free ride. No, they are not all getting it, and it varies by specific location and union, etc. But there are alot of them out there. If this is the only way to to bring them around, then so be it. Private sector workers generally pay quite a bit more for health insurance and traditional pension plans have basically gone extinct. There is nothing just or right about the scam many unions have been running on the taxpayer dime. The first five hours over 40 is free at my company. Wisconsin public workers would die of a stroke if that were suggested. What “scam” are you talking about? How is it a scam? What company do you work for? You do realize that paying overtime at 1.5x the rate of pay isn’t a union thing, don’t you? Or are you unaware that it’s federal law? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/295 "2011-02-23T20:57:18Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > **furt** , guess which one of those scores goes to \*not especially oppressed \*Virginia? > > _Hint- only 6 states scored worse._ My education included the concept of “correlation does not equal causation.” Would you be willing to tie teacher compensation to those same test scores, without any adjustment? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/296 "2011-02-23T21:05:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > My education included the concept of “correlation does not equal causation.” > > Would you be willing to tie teacher compensation to those same test scores, without any adjustment? Why not? So you’re implying populations that engage in union busting tend to be discouraging against academic success? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/297 "2011-02-23T21:12:03Z")
> [@furt](#): > > My education included the concept of “correlation does not equal causation.” No but when you see such a distinct correlation it definitely makes you go, “Hmmm…” It is certainly suggestive. If you have explanations for the bad test scores that make this a mere coincidence then feel free to point them out. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/298 "2011-02-23T21:24:27Z")
> [@furt](#): > > My education included the concept of “correlation does not equal causation.” > > Would you be willing to tie teacher compensation to those same test scores, without any adjustment? Why not? What?!?! You’re the one who brought up your state’s stance on unions and claimed that it demonstrated teachers not being oppressed. I merely offered you \*\*Whack-a-Mole’s \*\*cite showing that Virginia’s students don’t seem to be doing too well, by a commonly offered metric. But you are correct that this is merely a single datum. However, the fact that \*\*\*all \*\*\*the states that prohibit collective bargaining by teachers \*\*\*also \*\*\*score on the abysmal level in this same metric suggests that there is more than random chance in operation. Why, looky there, folks, it seems like it might be a pattern. Maybe there really is some causation after all. Separately, why do you insist on conflating teacher compensation with the ability to collectively bargain? Are you going to try to claim that the teachers in those states that do not allow collective bargaining must also necessarily be the worst teachers and thereby deserve the poorest pay? And also thereby justify not being able to collectively bargain? Other than hating unions, I just don’t see your point here. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/299 "2011-02-23T21:26:53Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > I can relate similar stories about my past experiences as well, public and private sector. Doesn’t change a thing. Was there a budget crises in TX at the time? > > People’s little personal stories don’t make national news. So you admit you have no personal knowledge of Wisconsin public workers? And by the way, they’ve ceded all the financial demands Walker made. They simply oppose his intent to destroy unions. Even the Fire/Police workers who aren’t subject to his union busting are out there protesting. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/300 "2011-02-23T21:29:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What “scam” are you talking about? How is it a scam? > > What company do you work for? You do realize that paying overtime at 1.5x the rate of pay isn’t a union thing, don’t you? Or are you unaware that it’s federal law? If you are an exempt employee, the employer is not required to pay you any overtime. The qualifications for exempt professional job duties are as follows: > [@FSLA](#): > > The job duties of the traditional “learned professions” are exempt. These include lawyers, doctors, dentists, teachers, architects, clergy. Also included are registered nurses (but not LPNs), accountants (but not bookkeepers), engineers (who have engineering degrees or the equivalent and perform work of the sort usually performed by licensed professional engineers), actuaries, scientists (but not technicians), pharmacists, and \*\*other employees who perform work requiring “advanced knowledge” \*\*similar to that historically associated with the traditional learned professions. > > Professionally exempt work means work which is predominantly intellectual, requires specialized education, and involves the exercise of discretion and judgment. **Professionally exempt workers must have education beyond high school,** and usually beyond college, in fields that are distinguished from (more “academic” than) the mechanical arts or skilled trades. Advanced degrees are the most common measure of this, but are not absolutely necessary if an employee has attained a similar level of advanced education through other means (and perform essentially the same kind of work as similar employees who do have advanced degrees). Sounds like teachers are exempt employees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=16)