# Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743 "2011-02-17T20:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/301 "2011-02-23T21:33:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No but when you see such a distinct correlation it definitely makes you go, “Hmmm…” It is certainly suggestive. > > If you have explanations for the bad test scores that make this a mere coincidence then feel free to point them out. Those five states are among the poorest in the nation. Those five states have some of the highest black and hispanic populations in the nation. Those five states are somewhat more rural than the national average. All three are also correlated to low test scores. If want to argue that test scores are tied to collective bargaining, you could see how scores changed within the same states. Nationally, collective bargaining for teachers began in the 60s, and was about where it is now by 1980. Wanna guess which direction SAT scores went in that period? > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So you’re implying populations that engage in union busting tend to be discouraging against academic success? 😕 No. I tend to suspect that union status correlates very loosely with academic success. I do tend to suspect it correlates strongly with spending. > [@CannyDan](#): > > What?!?! You’re the one who brought up your state’s stance on unions and claimed that it demonstrated teachers not being oppressed. Meaning: even without collective bargaining, teachers here make decent salaries and benefits. They are not oppressed serfs laboring on wal-mart wages. > [@](#): > > Why, looky there, folks, it seems like it might be a pattern. Indeed. States with lots of poor, rural minorities do badly on the SAT. > [@](#): > > Separately, why do you insist on conflating teacher compensation with the ability to collectively bargain? Are you going to try to claim that the teachers in those states that do not allow collective bargaining must also necessarily be the worst teachers and thereby deserve the poorest pay? And also thereby justify not being able to collectively bargain? > > Other than hating unions, I just don’t see your point here. Mutual. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/302 "2011-02-23T21:43:15Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Median means the center point of a distribution. So if the lowest end of the scale is 10,000 and the upper end is 50,000 then the median is 30,000. > > For instance, if you had 5 people who made, respectively, 10k, 20k, 30k, 40k and 50k, the median would be 30k. > > But if you had 5 people who made, respectively, 10k, 10k, 10k, 10k, and 50k, then the median is still 30k. > > Using median as a comparative marker for pay scales is fraught with issues. One system might have many, many new teachers making the lower end of the pay scale, with a very few senior people making a much higher rate. Another might have many very senior, highly credentialed people and only a few newbies making squat, and the median of both systems could be identical. This tells you nothing about waste, inefficiency, abuse of longevity promotion, competence of personnel, effectiveness of effort, or anything else that should be examined to decide if a pay scale is “too high” or the opposite. I’m sorry – independent of any issues about Walker or Wisconsin, you’ve got an error here about median. The median value has nothing to do with the extremes – it’s the value that has as many entries above it as below it. So in your first example the median is, indeed, 30K. But in the second it’s 10K. Contrary to what some people have said in this thread, all things being equal, the median is usually gives you a better picture of prevailing conditions than the mean – as in this case. > **[Median](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median)** > > The median of a set of numbers is the value separating the higher half from the lower half of a data sample, a population, or a probability distribution. For a data set, it may be thought of as the “middle" value. The basic feature of the median in describing data compared to the mean (often simply described as the "average") is that it is not skewed by a small proportion of extremely large or small values, and therefore provides a better representation of the center. Median income, for example, ... We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/303 "2011-02-23T21:45:32Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > It also turns out he’s a Kochsucker (well, faux-Kochsucker), as evidenced in this prank call today: > > [Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker Gets Punked on Tape - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-gets-punked-on-tape/71613/) This bit, just from reading, I swear I saw Dave Foley’s crotchety CEO character: > [@Pseudo-Koch](#): > > “My goddamn maid, Maria, put my phone in the washer. I’d have her deported, but she works for next to nothing.” Gilkes found this amusing. “I’m calling from the VOID—with the VOID, or whatever it’s called. You know, the Snype!” ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/304 "2011-02-23T21:51:19Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Those five states are among the poorest in the nation. > Those five states have some of the highest black and hispanic populations in the nation. > Those five states are somewhat more rural than the national average. > > All three are also correlated to low test scores. > > If want to argue that test scores are tied to collective bargaining, you could see how scores changed within the same states. Nationally, collective bargaining for teachers began in the 60s, and was about where it is now by 1980. Wanna guess which direction SAT scores went in that period? > 😕 > > No. I tend to suspect that union status correlates very loosely with academic success. I do tend to suspect it correlates strongly with spending. > Meaning: even without collective bargaining, teachers here make decent salaries and benefits. They are not oppressed serfs laboring on wal-mart wages. > > Indeed. States with lots of poor, rural minorities do badly on the SAT. > > Mutual. I know it’s the pit, so calling “cite!” doesn’t have the same inevitability. But you offer nothing beyond your word for your assertions, including the relative salaries of school teachers in your state or their level of oppression. We’ll leave that an open question. Same for the role that collective bargaining had or did not have with respect to that level of compensation. As for the larger argument, that lack of collective bargaining correlates strongly with poor standardized measures of student success, you have not defeated it at all. You have though suggested what most any person would readily acknowledge, that the reasons for a state’s national ranking in measurements of this kind is complex and a result of many factors. But you have done nothing to prove that lack of collective bargaining is not one of those factors. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/305 "2011-02-23T21:59:56Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’m sorry – independent of any issues about Walker or Wisconsin, you’ve got an error here about median. The median value has nothing to do with the extremes – it’s the value that has as many entries above it as below it. So in your first example the median is, indeed, 30K. But in the second it’s 10K. Contrary to what some people have said in this thread, all things being equal, the median is usually gives you a better picture of prevailing conditions than the mean – as in this case. > > [Median - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median) > > We now return you to your regularly scheduled arguments. I wasn’t confusing it with the mean. I was just confusing it, period. [This](http://math.about.com/od/statistics/a/MeanMedian.htm) says > [@](#): > > **The Median** > The Median is the ‘middle value’ in your list. When the totals of the list are odd, the median is the middle entry in the list after sorting the list into increasing order. You’re right, I was wrong. Duh! (facepalm) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/306 "2011-02-23T22:08:35Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Well I have to admit, I did not think this would devolve into a paranoid conspiracy theory about the “rich people.” 😛 > > Run with it dudes and dudettes! This should get pretty entertaining after the rich people get home from work… Paranoid conspiracy theory? There is nothing conspiratorial about Republicans wanting to bust unions. Its pretty out in the open. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/307 "2011-02-23T22:17:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Those five states are among the poorest in the nation. > Those five states have some of the highest black and hispanic populations in the nation. > Those five states are somewhat more rural than the national average. Virginia has the [5th most number of millionaires](http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/109083/the-richest-states-in-america) in the country. [According to this](http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/16/news/economy/Americas_wealthiest_states/index.htm) Virginia is the 6th wealthiest state overall in the United States. From the same list just linked only North and South Carolina fall on the bottom ten. So Virginia, Georgia and Texas are not among the “poorest”. Texas, Georgia and North Carolina are in the [top ten](http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_tot_bla_pop-people-total-black-population) with the largest black populations. Virginia is #11, South Carolina #13. For [hispanic populations](http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_tot_his_pop-people-total-hispanic-population) Texas is way up there. North Carolina and Georgia are a distant #10 & 11. Virginia is back at #16 and South Carolina way back at #35. Is there a reason rural kids do worse than, say, inner city kids in school? Cite? Sorry, not seeing your numbers in any way showing a trend here as causes for poor performance by the students in your state. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/308 "2011-02-23T22:17:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am not up on what analysis is better to use (median or mean) but isn’t there an issue with the Median when, in this case, you have varying costs of living? A teacher in Boise may make less than a teacher in New York City in absolute terms but when measured against what it costs to live in the area the teacher in Boise might be better off (not saying they are, haven’t looked, just a made-up example). > > So, if you draw a median line between Boise and New York City teachers are you getting a useful measure? > > (Again, really asking, I do not know.) Well, comparing median public school teacher salaries in Wisconsin against median private school teacher salaries in Wisconsin doesn’t seem deceptive on its face. If you want to explain the disparity by telling me why I am comparing apppels and oranges (because private school teachers are less qualified or most of the private schools are in really low cost of living locations) then fine but on its face it sounds like public school teachers make more than private school teachers in Wisconsin. Wisconsin has one of the top ten public school systems in the country. If you really believe in merit pay, wouldn’t you say that they shold receive a top ten salary (adjusted for Cost of Living) or does merit pay only work to cut pay and fire people? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/309 "2011-02-23T22:23:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, comparing median public school teacher salaries in Wisconsin against median private school teacher salaries in Wisconsin doesn’t seem deceptive on its face. If you want to explain the disparity by telling me why I am comparing apppels and oranges (because private school teachers are less qualified or most of the private schools are in really low cost of living locations) then fine but on its face it sounds like public school teachers make more than private school teachers in Wisconsin. > > Wisconsin has one of the top ten public school systems in the country. If you really believe in merit pay, wouldn’t you say that they shold receive a top ten salary (adjusted for Cost of Living) or does merit pay only work to cut pay and fire people? I’m not calling you deceptive. I was asking for a lesson on interpreting median versus mean as an analysis tool. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/310 "2011-02-23T22:25:00Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Those five states have some of the highest black and hispanic populations in the nation. What the fuck is this supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/311 "2011-02-23T22:31:21Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Median means the center point of a distribution. So if the lowest end of the scale is 10,000 and the upper end is 50,000 then the median is 30,000… > > Using median as a comparative marker for pay scales is fraught with issues. One system might have many, many new teachers making the lower end of the pay scale, with a very few senior people making a much higher rate. Another might have many very senior, highly credentialed people and only a few newbies making squat, and the median of both systems could be identical. This tells you nothing about waste, inefficiency, abuse of longevity promotion, competence of personnel, effectiveness of effort, or anything else that should be examined to decide if a pay scale is “too high” or the opposite. Yeah if you have a data set of 10 or 20, then sure. When you have a data set of thousands its not useless. Its enough to get your started. It tells you what the guy at the 50th percentile makes. If you want to argue that this hides the fact that the bottom 49% makes 10K/year while the top 51% makes 58K/year then fine but absent some evidence of this sort of skew, I think we can compare the medians and come to some tentative positions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/312 "2011-02-23T22:36:41Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > **furt** , guess which one of those scores goes to \*not especially oppressed \*Virginia? > > _Hint- only 6 states scored worse._ I find it VERY hard to believe that Virginia Schools are in the bottom ten: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/09/AR2008010901058.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/09/AR2008010901058.html) Perhaps SAT and ACT scores from 12 years ago isn’t the best way to determine who has the best school systems today. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/313 "2011-02-23T22:37:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What the fuck is this supposed to mean? To be fair he is just talking about correlation, not causation. Lower test scores may be correlated with large black and/or hispannic populations, but it doesn’t imply it is caused by some innate characteristic of being black or hispanic. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/314 "2011-02-23T22:49:02Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > To be fair he is just talking about correlation, not causation. Lower test scores may be correlated with large black and/or hispannic populations, but it doesn’t imply it is caused by some innate characteristic of being black or hispanic. But he’s citing it as part of a list of possible explanations for low scores. The implication is that he’s listing it as a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/315 "2011-02-23T22:53:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No but when you see such a distinct correlation it definitely makes you go, “Hmmm…” It is certainly suggestive. > > If you have explanations for the bad test scores that make this a mere coincidence then feel free to point them out. Here is a more recent chart: [http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/08/25/state-sat-scores-2009.aspx](http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009/08/25/state-sat-scores-2009.aspx) Wisconsin is second on this list as well but it notes that most wisconsin students take the ACT (only 5% opt to take the SAT and i suspect thre might be some self selection there). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/316 "2011-02-23T22:57:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But he’s citing it as part of a list of possible explanations for low scores. The implication is that he’s listing it as a cause. No he isn’t, he specifcally says they are correlated. He is in fact trying to point out the logical fallacy of saying correlation is equal to causation, which the earlier poster did with the SAT scores and collective bargaining. You can argue correlation, but you need more than just side by side number comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/317 "2011-02-23T23:00:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m not calling you deceptive. > > I was asking for a lesson on interpreting median versus mean as an analysis tool. Oh, I wasn’t making the comparison so i wouldn’t have taken offense if you had in fact called it deceptive, I was just pointing out that comparing medians is not meaningless like one of the posters mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/318 "2011-02-23T23:10:00Z")
Here is a chart of SAT scores by state from 2010. This is a frankly right-wing site from PA, but I have no particular reason to doubt their numbers. > **[2010 SAT Scores by State - Commonwealth Foundation](https://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/2010/09/16/2010-sat-scores-by-state/)** > > EDITORS NOTE: Click here for the 2014 SAT Scores by state The College Board has released the results of the 2010 SAT. We prepared a chart of SAT performance by state, including all 50 states, a comparison of states with high participation, and... ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/319 "2011-02-23T23:15:41Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Here is a chart of SAT scores by state from 2010. This is a frankly right-wing site from PA, but I have no particular reason to doubt their numbers. > > [2010 SAT Scores by State](http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state) The acute disparity in particiaption rates make it suspect for being able to say anyything. My guess is that many states do not require the SAT (for example to get into University of Wisconsin schools you need just take the ACT), in those states the kids who take the SAT would more likely be the smarter students who have the possibility of a wider range of schools. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/320 "2011-02-23T23:22:05Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > It also turns out he’s a Kochsucker (well, faux-Kochsucker), as evidenced in this prank call today: > > [Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker Gets Punked on Tape - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-gets-punked-on-tape/71613/) I’m surprised this isn’t getting more attention. It appears to have been verified. [http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/governor\_walkers\_office\_confir.html](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/governor_walkers_office_confir.html) Walker is an idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=17)