# Govenor Scott Walker (R) WI **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743 "2011-02-17T20:56:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/41 "2011-02-18T19:49:00Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Be honest now… would they have offered concessions? I’d like to see the union that proactively offered concessions instead of initially telling the employer to pound sand. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/11/us-wisconsin-budget-unions-idUSTRE71A7FP20110211](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/11/us-wisconsin-budget-unions-idUSTRE71A7FP20110211) > [@](#): > > …State employee unions made $100 million in concessions in December to ease the budgetary strain, said Bryan Kennedy, president of the state chapter of the American Federation of Teachers. But Walker’s response has been “to eviscerate our most basic rights” and “end labor peace in Wisconsin.”… Sorry, you were saying? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/42 "2011-02-18T19:51:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, they’re representing their constituents to the best of their ability. They’re using extralegal methods to try to prevent a bill that has the support of the majority of the legislature from being passed. Is it in the interests of their constituents to flout the legal process and majority rule? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/43 "2011-02-18T19:59:59Z")
Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/44 "2011-02-18T20:09:05Z")
Why? What happens when the Democrats take power and try the same thing? When you ignore procedure for temporary political gain, respect for the rule of law and the government suffers, and you encourage your opponents to do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/45 "2011-02-18T20:11:55Z")
Remember that the next time the Republicans threaten to filibuster some routine and innocuous piec of legislation or Presdiential appointment. Besides, the Wisconsin Dems have good reason to take a desperate measure. It’s a particularly vicious and destructive piece of legislation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/46 "2011-02-18T20:20:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Why? What happens when the Democrats take power and try the same thing? When you ignore procedure for temporary political gain, respect for the rule of law and the government suffers, and you encourage your opponents to do the same thing. We already have a “liberal hypocrisy” poster child. Its not very nice of you to poach his territory. Its all the poor dear has. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/47 "2011-02-18T21:04:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php?ref=fpb) > > From _Talking Points Memo_, without which no citizen can hope to be truly informed… > > TL:DR…the budget shortfall which necessitated this “fix” was due to Republican tax cuts that turned a fiscal situation in WI from adequate to dire. > > Sic 'em, cheeseheads! Tear 'em a new one! Wow, just fucking wow. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/48 "2011-02-18T21:06:20Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Interestingly, police officers, state troopers, and firefighters are exempt from the proposed rules. Kevin Drum over at Mother Jones [speculates on why](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/02/defunding-democratic-party):It’s a nice racket the GOP’s got going, where they get to use the bad results of their own policies as an excuse to screw over their enemies. I will note that at least SOME firefighters and policemen are rallying in solidarity with the teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/49 "2011-02-18T21:07:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Be honest now… would they have offered concessions? I’d like to see the union that proactively offered concessions instead of initially telling the employer to pound sand. I believe they made a $100 million concession to get the budget right pre-Walker tax cut. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/50 "2011-02-18T21:10:10Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Of course out of control spending couldn’t have anything to do with it :rolleyes: If you think the teachers are paid too much then make THAT case (its hard to do considering they are not paid more than any of their neighoring states). Why contrive a budget crisis by cutting taxes to the point where there is a budget crisis? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/51 "2011-02-18T22:39:24Z")
> [@furlibusea](#): > > As part of a theoretical attempt to balance the budget you have put forth legislation that will strip all bargaining power from the unions. While it might arguably fair for teachers and state workers to pay more for their health care, what does the protections the union offers against unfair firing or poor working conditions have to do with the budget? Will any savings survive the cost of the judicial process? I’m curious about this as well. I’m not a huge fan of unions overall, but the stripping of collective bargaining rights doesn’t seem to have anything to do with saving money and everything to do with punishing/crippling the unions. Paying more for health care? I can see that. Taxing pensions? Okay. That can at least bring in some money. Removing collective bargaining rights at best would only potentially save money further down the road kind of sort of maybe depending on circumstances. And doing so (AFAIK) without attempting to negotiate concessions first really does make it seem as if they are union busting instead of governing. If leaving the state means that this steaming heap of a bill doesn’t get a vote, so be it. The republicans seem to be unwilling to consider the opinion of a portion of their constituents (the affected union members), so I can’t be too angry with the democrats for doing the same. > [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Be honest now… would they have offered concessions? I’d like to see the union that proactively offered concessions instead of initially telling the employer to pound sand. I was curious about this as well, but it seems it’s been asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/52 "2011-02-18T22:44:40Z")
in hearing news on the issue, i found that Wisconsin was the first state to allow unionization of government workers that was signed into law in 1959 by Governor Gaylord Nelson. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/53 "2011-02-18T23:02:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Besides, the Wisconsin Dems have good reason to take a desperate measure. It’s a particularly vicious and destructive piece of legislation. So? I mean, I agree with you. It’s a vicious and destructive piece of legislation. But that’s what happens when you lose the election. The other side is able to come in and pass their vicious and destructive pieces of legislation. Your hope then is that people will be so pissed off by their vicious and destructive legislation that they’ll vote you in and you’ll be able to pass your own vicious and destructive legislation. Welcome to democracy. But when you say, “Oh, this time it’s worth it to take a desperate measure” or “this time it’s worth it to bend the rules”, you’re spreading the message that the rules don’t matter; that getting a good result is more important than following the law. And that way lies chaos and madness. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/54 "2011-02-18T23:10:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We already have a “liberal hypocrisy” poster child. Its not very nice of you to poach his territory. Its all the poor dear has. This isn’t about hypocrisy. Both sides are hypocritical. I realize that, and I don’t care very much. I just don’t like it when these types of games get played. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/55 "2011-02-19T00:00:24Z")
Your analysis of mutual teeter-totter balancing stupidity would hold up except for one crucial point, and that is the principle of collective bargaining. This is an important, nay, essential element in the creative resolution to the labor/employer conflict. Which, of course, ought not to be a conflict at all, but so it goes. The history we teach our kids tends to relate the Labor movement in soft and fuzzy colors, but it was a brutal and decades-long struggle of blood, pain, and suffering. And it could very well have been much, much worse. The acceptance of labor unions as a part of our culture and society was bitterly contested, but finally established. The paleo-Republicans have never entirely accepted this fact, even after so many, many years, and would turn the clock back in a heartbeat if they had the chance. Striking at that principle is beyond the usual give and take of electoral politics, it is an extraordinary grasp for power beyond the power routinely offered by elections, and is being resisted by extraordinary means. Wisconsin is a blue-collar sort of state. Did the current crop of Republicans run on breaking the unions as their platform? Did they promise this sort of thing to the electorate, and saw it approved? I don’t know, but I very, very much doubt it, and await contradictory citation “with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces”. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/56 "2011-02-19T00:51:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, they’re representing their constituents to the best of their ability. In a cheap hotel in northern Illinois? This is cowardice of a degree that has never been known here. Go to the Capitol, debate why you think the bill stinks, try to tack on as many amendments as you can, try to stall the vote **WHILE IN THE CAPITOL CHAMBERS** as long as you can, but stay and do the job you were fucking elected to do. Running away to another state is pure cowardice! It’s also a case of sour grapes that hasn’t been seen since John Wilkes Booth pulled a pistol in Fords Theater. Your side lost. There is another election in less than 2 years. Make your case and try to get the legislature back. But stay and do the job you were elected to do! Scott Walker hid nothing about what he was going to do when elected any more than Obama did when running. They both won, and they’re both doing what they said they’d do. Go cry in your beer. But running away to another state is a vomitus move of unbelievable proportions! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/57 "2011-02-19T01:20:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wisconsin is a blue-collar sort of state. Did the current crop of Republicans run on breaking the unions as their platform? Did they promise this sort of thing to the electorate, and saw it approved? I don’t know, but I very, very much doubt it, and await contradictory citation “with the calm confidence of a Methodist with four aces”. What sort of person expects Republicans to be pro-union? Besides, it’s immaterial. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but legislators vote for all sorts of issues they don’t explicitly campaign for. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/58 "2011-02-19T01:44:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What sort of person expects Republicans to be pro-union? They are pro-union; they exempted the police and firefighter unions, didn’t they? I’m sure the fact that the police and firefighter unions supported Walker in the last election is just coincidental. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/59 "2011-02-19T01:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > …I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but legislators vote for all sorts of issues they don’t explicitly campaign for. Sure, and I’m not shocked shocked. But I appreciate the avuncular way that you gently disabuse me of my youthful ignorance Next time you pat me on the head, be sure and count your fingers. OK, so a guy may be Greener than he lets on, maybe he’s got a hit man from the Kock Brothers following him around, maybe he really means to vote more funding for solar power research than he lets on. And so it goes. But collective bargaining is much, much bigger than that, it is a fundamental social issue of power and who wields it, and to whose benefit. The reactionary right dreams of destroying the unions once and for all while masturbating like a motherfuck. Riddle me this, then: if he had run on a platform of disemboweling labor unions in his state, would he have won? I think not, if someone can show me proof of such a public declaration of war, I will face-palm myself unconscious. So, if he intended to do this all along, but never mentioned it, that’s a bit thicker than ordinary political schmoozing. And if he didn’t so intend but somehow shortly after election had a Come to Mammon moment and saw the darkness, I’d sure like to know what triggered it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743/60 "2011-02-19T02:34:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But collective bargaining is much, much bigger than that, it is a fundamental social issue of power and who wields it, and to whose benefit. The reactionary right dreams of destroying the unions once and for all while masturbating like a motherfuck. I don’t give a flying fuck. This isn’t about the issue. It’s about the rule of law. You want me to say again that this bill is terrible? Fine, it’s terrible. It’s wrong. It shouldn’t be passed. I’d never vote for it. I’d never vote for anyone who did vote for it. It’s a blatant political attack on the unions that didn’t support Walker disguised as a budget cutting bill. Walker is a scumbag. Wisconsin Republicans are scumbags. Is that vehement enough for you? That still doesn’t make what the Wisconsin senators are doing is right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/govenor-scott-walker-r-wi/571743.md?page=4)